How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Phil Goodman [00:00:00]:
They hire employees, and they set them off on their way. And then the business owners get distracted with all the things, and then they come to me and they say, hey, Phil, like, we need to fire this person. And this person has had no coaching, no development. So not only are they causing drama and distraction among themselves, but then they're also not getting the full performance of their team.

Kenny Lange [00:00:27]:
Welcome to the how leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Phil Goodman. He is the founder of Talent realized. He's affectionately known as the doctor Phil of HR, which is pretty cool. But as you can tell, he's not bald and doesn't have the giant mustache. But that's okay. He's his younger, better looking brother among. Among small business owners.

Kenny Lange [00:00:58]:
He takes on that moniker and with the CEO's that he partners with. And you may be asking yourself why he doesn't look anything like him. Well, he loves diagnosing and resolving these organizations, HR and people challenges, guiding them towards organizational health, which is desperately needed, and strength. So they're not just surviving. They're thriving. After 15 years working in the people side of HR and the operational leadership roles in high growth, mission driven companies, he started and founded Talent Realized, which offers fractional chief people officer services to small businesses, nonprofits, and churches. Welcome to the show, Phil.

Phil Goodman [00:01:41]:
Hey, thanks, Kenny. Appreciate you having me on. Talking about the existence of aliens and whether they're out there. It's an interesting topic to bring me on, you know, knowing my background, but here we are.

Kenny Lange [00:01:54]:
Yeah. I'd like to say that people. Aliens are people, too.

Phil Goodman [00:01:57]:
Yeah. They need thriving workplaces as well, and good cultures to thrive in.

Kenny Lange [00:02:03]:
Yeah. I mean, when you're trying to terraform a new planet and your boss just micromanages you, how should you handle that?

Phil Goodman [00:02:14]:
Yeah, that's a good question. So, my bhag is there. Maybe it's to create, have a client on Mars. That would be amazing in the future. Maybe like a 30, 40 year bhag goal for me. Clients on Mars, they need to have positive workplaces there, too.

Kenny Lange [00:02:31]:
There you go. You just need, like, google alerts on Elon Musk and SpaceX and getting onto Mars to see who's signing up, things like that. I'm sure you could probably get a virtual assistant or AI to scrape that info for you. In case anybody was wondering, bhag is not some sort of, like, weird industry term. It just means big, hairy, audacious goal which leads me to my next point. The existence of Bigfoot. Talking about big, hairy, audacious. I'm just kidding.

Kenny Lange [00:03:05]:
This is off to a fun start. So, Phil, tell me what is on your mind, man.

Phil Goodman [00:03:11]:
So the other day, chatting with one of my clients, and they're bringing up an employee issue, and they're ready to fire this guy. They're just like, you know, the business owners. Like, hey, I need to fire this guy. He's not meeting my expectations, and his performance low. And first question I ask him, all right, in the last month, how much time have you spent with this employee? Like, actually, like, spent with them and coaching them? Guess what he said. Zero.

Kenny Lange [00:03:38]:
Goose egg.

Phil Goodman [00:03:38]:
Goose egg. Nothing. Nothing. And then he's talking to me like, hey, this guy, we need to let him go because he's underperforming. Business owners are killing their growth by not coaching their employees. Like, that is what's standing out to me. So, like, frequently now working with clients, they hire employees, and they set them off on their way. And then the business owners get distracted with all the things, and then they come to me and they say, hey, Phil, we need to fire this person.

Phil Goodman [00:04:07]:
And this person has had no coaching, no development. So not only are they, you know, causing drama and distraction among themselves, but then they're also not getting the full performance of their team. And it drives me crazy, Kenny, it's like a coach of a basketball team, right, that just is sitting there on the sidelines watching their players and never calling a timeout, seeing these repeating behaviors, seeing these bad plays, and never calling a timeout, never giving them coaching. But then when they get to the bench saying, hey, you're benched, or you're kicked off the team, and the player being like, what? Like, how did I get to this point? And the team is just losing. And so that's really. I don't know. I'm fired up lately because it's not a challenging thing. It's not.

Phil Goodman [00:04:57]:
It's not hard. It's not rocket science. It's just time. And actually spending the time with employees and coaching them, it can make a huge difference, not only reducing the drama they experience, but then increasing the performance of the organization.

Kenny Lange [00:05:13]:
Yeah, as one of my former employees said, it ain't rocket surgery, but he was an interesting individual, to say the least. What I hear you saying is that a lot of leaders in particular, maybe business owners or nonprofit executive directors, they still act like small business owner founders is their leadership style is sort of a leading by abdication. I hired you to do a thing? No, go do a thing. Nobody taught me how to do anything I'm doing now. I figured it out. You go and do likewise. Which, contrary to popular belief, is not how Jesus led. But that's probably a different sermon for another day.

Kenny Lange [00:06:03]:
But I'll be honest with you, I really struggled with that in my first company, is I started hiring people, and I was like, well, here's some learning and training modules and HubSpot or something else. Figure it out. That's what I did. And now I would try to pay some more attention, but I would give them a lot more leeway. It ended up costing me a lot of money and having to fire people and stuff because I did exactly what your client was doing. So if it's so simple as you put it, like, it's so clear, if you don't spend time, how can you expect performance? Right? If it's so clear, why do you think that that happens so often? What is the current thinking that the prevailing wisdom that undergirds that type of leadership to the point where you're seeing it repeated over and over and over again?

Phil Goodman [00:07:03]:
Yeah, well, I think you pointed out some of those aspects there and what you just said, because a lot of times, especially with businesses that have a business owner founder, that person's used to wearing all the hats to being scrappy, building it themselves, having that ownership mindset, then they start adding to the team, and then they start building that same expectation. It's like, well, I had to figure this out. You can figure it out, too. I'm trying to do all these other things, and then they build a layer of management that's operating in that same way, and they are doing the same thing, and they're wearing a lot of hats. And it gets to a certain point, then when you have more frontline employees, then that are more detached, not wearing that owner's hat, and we're having ownership mentality and are feeling lost and in oblivion. And it's just this habit that those owners get into that I see. It's just this. And it's hard to break it until you get to one of those moments of conflict or moments of tension where they realize, okay, there is chaos.

Phil Goodman [00:08:09]:
There's something here that I don't like, and what's happening? How did we get here? And sometimes, too, it's, they're so busy with you wearing all the hats that they hire someone. They get to a point like, okay, I can afford to hire someone, so I'm going to hire somebody, and then I'm going to say, like you said, here, here's your responsibility. You need to take this off my plate and you need to run with this. And then they do, and then you just start focusing on all the other things that you are just, you know, you really want to focus on. And you forget about that person. Especially if you hire a high performer, high performing person. A lot of times they just get ignored and don't get developed, but they still desire it. Like, that was one of the biggest, you know, errors in my management is not developing a high performing employee.

Phil Goodman [00:08:58]:
They were high performing and I took it for granted and was just, hey, they've got what they need. But they felt ignored and undervalued because I wasn't giving them coaching and development. They still wanted it and desired it, and I wasn't giving that to them like I was other people. And so then they got ignored and felt undervalued and didn't have the direction they needed and ultimately ended up leaving the company. And that was one of the regrets I had. One of the learning lessons I have in my career.

Kenny Lange [00:09:28]:
Wow.

Phil Goodman [00:09:29]:
But, yeah, it's a lot of times it's owners. It's not intentional. I don't believe it's not this intentional. Yeah, I'm going to just hire people and then not coach them, not develop them. I think they're just wearing so many hats and they don't realize just how simple it really can be. They don't have to. There's so many books and systems and platforms out there that almost add complexity to it. But at the end of the day, it's just relationship management.

Phil Goodman [00:10:01]:
It's just simple relationship management. Whether it's, you could say the same thing between spouses and kids. It's, you want the quality relationship that oftentimes is correlated with the quality of time spent together and having some time. Like, if you have an issue in your marriage, a lot of times it's because you're not talking about it. You're not having an intentional moments where you can bring up things and actually, you know, get things out on the table in, you know, a space where you're both, like, ready for it. And so that stuff just builds and eventually gets to a breaking point. Same thing with work relationships. I see it in both.

Kenny Lange [00:10:45]:
Yeah. And there's a couple of really interesting things you said there. One of the things when owners are wearing too many hats, I called that, and I called it for myself, is being the chief everything officer. Right. You're doing marketing, sales, delivering the services, and taking out the trash like you're doing all of it, which is stressful. Believe me, I understand it, and I know you do, too. I'm curious what your experience says about the timing of that hire, because I don't hear you saying that hiring somebody to help take some of those things off that owner, that founder, that leader's plate is a negative, a bad move or decision. Maybe the way they're executing it is.

Kenny Lange [00:11:40]:
But could you talk a little bit about the timing of it? Because I am finding more and more that it's almost not enough to make the right decision, but you've got to make it at the right time.

Phil Goodman [00:11:57]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:11:58]:
Well, can you talk a little bit about the timing of that sort of hiring.

Phil Goodman [00:12:03]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:12:04]:
Process. Because you mentioned in your scenario that person's just. They're overwhelmed, they're overloaded, but they look at their bank accounts, they're like, could probably afford somebody, maybe just part time or something, and then they throw it over the wall and say, run with it. Right. So what's. How should owners and leaders be thinking about the timing of bringing somebody on, adding somebody new to the team, and delegating some of the burden of responsibilities that they carry?

Phil Goodman [00:12:34]:
Yeah, I probably have a more scrappy mentality when it comes to that. You know, payroll is, what, 60% to 80% of a budget? That's like the largest line item. And when you are committing those dollars, you are not only committing a huge chunk of your profit that you have, but then you also are disrupting someone else's life. And hopefully for a positive, you're providing work and they're saying no to another opportunity and they're joining your team. You know, maybe they're coming from another job that they enjoyed, but they see this opportunity, they want to join. And so there is a lot of responsibility that is tied with that, because then in six months, if you're like, we can't afford this anymore, and you say, hey, I got a got to let you go, I can't actually afford your position now. You just cause a huge disruption in that person's life. So I probably am a more scrappy, like, how long can you go and how far? Like, what is your pain tolerance? Or sometimes the opposite side is, what's the opportunity? It's kind of both.

Phil Goodman [00:13:42]:
It's if you clearly see an opportunity and this person can unlock revenue in a very unique way, then by all means, like, test it out, maybe lower their base and have a higher variable comp just to maybe navigate some of those risks. But yeah, you either have to have the risk there. The pain point has to be so acute that you just have to find a solution for that. Or the opportunity has to be so great that you have to make that move.

Kenny Lange [00:14:14]:
Yeah, that the return on, if you capture that opportunity would more than offset the cost of bringing somebody on. Because maybe that person frees you up to pursue an opportunity as opposed to just sending them. That's an interesting thought. Something I've heard from some, probably on a podcast book, something, I don't know. I get source amnesia and my hair is graying rapidly, as you can tell my kids, all 37 children that I have. Don't infer if this is your first time listening, please don't infer something about that. I'm a foster parent, so it's not. Anyways, email me if you have questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

Kenny Lange [00:14:58]:
But the notion of it's like taking heart health medicine whilst having a heart attack, it's a little late, right? Like you maybe waited a tad too long. And I'm all for being scrappy. I'm all for it. But figuring out, like when have I ceased to be scrappy and now I started to be stupid? Yes, and I mean no offense, but there is a point at which you're doing something that is damaging to yourself and you're willingly participating in it. I call that stupid. And if you have a problem with that, you turn the podcast off and go somewhere else that'll, you know, tickle your ear with pretty words. How, how do you help your clients? And how have you helped other people along your career figure out, hey, I think you can push a little further, or hey, I think you're coming up on something and let's get you help that will prolong your scrappiness, maybe, and help you avoid burnout. Because it's much harder to come back from a being burnt out than it is to figure out, like, well, how am I going to keep selling so I can make the next payroll or something like that?

Phil Goodman [00:16:15]:
Yeah, yeah. What first comes to mind is really just how efficient they are and how focused they are in their kind of operations. So, like you would say, do they have a very clear kind of mission goals for this year that they're tracking that tie to their revenue goal? Like, what is the number one number they're trying to get to? And is their work all pointing in that direction and are they doing the right things at the right time? Because a lot of my clients that I talk with, they don't have that direction and they're doing a lot of things at a lot of different times, but, and then they're feeling overwhelmed. And so I come in, I'm like, all right, why are you doing those things? Why is this a priority for this team or for you right now? And a lot of times, well, because it has to be. It has to. And then they're like, actually, I don't know. I keep pushing and it really doesn't matter. Or it isn't the number one thing, but they're spending time on this thing that actually doesn't drive the number one number, or maybe they don't even know what the number one number is and they're just taking on a bunch of different stuff.

Phil Goodman [00:17:27]:
So I would say first, like, you have to define, you know, what the game you're playing is, what the rules of the game, how you're going to measure. And if you are clear on that, and then you're still overwhelmed and you've got focus and you have, you know, you're working on your own productivity and your own discipline in your, of how you organize your schedule. Then I think you're at a point where now you're being stupid. Now it's like the analogy just with the heart doctor. You should have a goal for your health. And then are you doing things? And I would ask, are you doing things? Are you eating? Are you exercising? And are those things, are you doing them consistently and prioritizing them? And if you are, and then you're still having that issue, now you're being stupid, now you're not going to the doctor is, hey, like, you are risking your life and others. And so I don't know. I would, I would probably, I usually start there.

Phil Goodman [00:18:29]:
And that's why a lot of times my role ends up being almost a coo like or a chief of staff type of role because I get into these companies and they're having drama and they're overwhelmed and they want to, you know, either fire people or hire people. And then I start talking about, all right, well, what are the goals of the company? And are the teams aligned? And are you aligned? And is this person truly overwhelmed doing the right work at the right time? Or are they just overwhelmed because they're saying yes to everything and they're not prioritizing kind of what they really need to be working on?

Kenny Lange [00:19:08]:
That's so good. Yeah, I hear you saying that, and I hear this in health because I have family members that work in healthcare. But, like, the best medicine is, or best care is preventative care, right. It's not the responsive, reactive care. It's not having the bypass surgery. It's doing all the eating, exercising, getting sunlight. All the different things that would keep your heart healthy in the first place. As opposed to relying on the reactive surgical and medical options that might be available to you.

Kenny Lange [00:19:42]:
Thank God we have those things. Cause stuff happens. But the ideal would be you're doing things to keep yourself healthy on the front end. Right. As I read in your bio, you have a heavy emphasis on organizational health, not just productivity. Cause some level of productivity or just activity could actually lead to a really unhealthy place for a lot of your clients, I would imagine.

Phil Goodman [00:20:06]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:20:07]:
I mean, you'll have to forget my voice going out. It is allergy season in the heart of East Texas. And. And just as my car is, I'm guessing my lungs are coated in a nice greenish yellow hue right now. But I want to maybe pivot to one other thing you said a few minutes ago about high performers getting ignored. You know, put one way that I've heard often is the punishment for being productive or efficient is more work right in your job. So it actually, the culture becomes one that rewards slothful, mishandled work. Because nobody asks you to do anything because they don't trust you.

Kenny Lange [00:20:54]:
Or they'll give you fewer things because you take Sadagam long. You're like the sloths on Zootopia, right? Like you just forever. And I know I just blurred Zootopia with sandlot. So in case you're trying to. Pop culture.

Phil Goodman [00:21:11]:
I was going to say, quote me.

Kenny Lange [00:21:12]:
On a comment there that there's that. But what can we do to protect these high performers? And I'm not talking about special treatment, because people hate that too. But as you mentioned in the past, you ignored the high performer and. And they leave. And not only does that ding the output of your team. That you're charged with leading and accountable for to your peers or higher ups. It can also ding the morale, the culture, the chemistry of that team. When they see, like, oh, well, Phil's.

Kenny Lange [00:21:55]:
John's gone. Why am I staying here? I'm not as good as him or whatever. How can we make sure that we're protecting the health of those high performers? Because you mentioned, just like in, with children, if you have a really strong, independent child. And you have one that's causing lots of issues. You pay attention to the one with lots of issues. The other one gets, you know, sort of. I'm not going to say abandoned, but they get left alone. They're like, hey, you're good.

Kenny Lange [00:22:23]:
You're taking care of yourself. Awesome. Thank you for being strong. You know, your reward is less of my parental attention and care.

Phil Goodman [00:22:32]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:22:33]:
You know, and nobody means to do that, but it does happen. How do we protect ourselves as leaders from that?

Phil Goodman [00:22:39]:
Yeah, you have to prioritize the same amount of time with that person. It's not, might not be equally distributed right there. You might be spending, and a lot of times it's evident, right. The people on your team that are high performers, they see the low performers, and if you tell them, hey, I'm spending 2 hours with this person and 1 hour with you, they'll get it. They'll thank you for it. They'll be thank you. Like, they're underperforming. You need to spend more time with them, but they still want that 1 hour.

Phil Goodman [00:23:10]:
And a lot of times I see, you know, people get distracted. They say, you know, maybe it's pushing off a one on one or not having it or being rushed in it, you know, because, you know, they got other things to do and they got this other, you know, fire they're trying to put out and this person, they're trying to develop, and then, you know, they aren't focusing on that person saying, hey, how are you doing and how can I help develop you? Where can, where are you wanting to grow and where are you wanting to, you know, thrive in? You know, they. A lot of times that gets sacrificed, and that's what happened with me, like, that, those conversations get sacrificed, and you just assume that that person's great and you move on to the other person that's causing you a lot of headache. And for me on my HR team, it was, you know, there's a lot of other headaches that I'm dealing with in the company. Like a lot of other pain points and drama.

Kenny Lange [00:24:00]:
Right.

Phil Goodman [00:24:01]:
And so, yeah, and that's an easy thing to get in. And I totally get it when, you know, owners do that. But then I think about, man, they are the top performers. And when you look at the research about high performers and their impact on an organization and how much value they actually bring to an organization, you actually get a little convicted. Like, man, I actually should be spending more time with that person that's producing two to three x as another person in the same role. How can I help make sure they're thriving and we retain them and keep them focused? Because if I lose them, I'm gonna have to hire two people to backfill them, you know, can be very convicting when you read that research, but it is a easy thing to get into easy rhythm, and it's hard to get out. And a lot of times that person isn't communicating it or doesn't know how to until it's too late. Then they get, you know, a random recruiter reach out to them on LinkedIn, and they're like, yeah, maybe.

Phil Goodman [00:25:06]:
Maybe I should take a look at this. I've kind of run stagnant here. And a high performer wants to continually grow and get, you know, push and add more and. And take on new challenges that kind of push them, and that's when they're ripe for those offers and to possibly get poached.

Kenny Lange [00:25:26]:
Yeah. Now I've seen that quite a bit is you always want the next challenge, and if you're not being challenged, if it's just, hey, I just need. Just take care of this thing. I got the problem children over here, you know, to take care of. As someone is thinking about, where should my time go? And I'd also be curious about your philosophy, thoughts or methodology around one on ones and cadences, because I do think today's leaders and managers, especially if you're an owner, and that may be the most difficult one if you are the owner, the executive director, founder, how do you make sure people are getting enough of you but doing so in a way that doesn't drag you into, I can't get anything done because I'm talking to all these people. I hear that a lot in the work that I do because I advocate for certain types of shorter one on ones, larger coaching conversations, different things. I'm curious what your experience has taught you and then what are you teaching your clients right now about how to get the most out of that so they can still be productive in their responsibilities, but really be a force multiplier for the productivity of their people?

Phil Goodman [00:26:53]:
Yeah, I have always been under the. I've always thought that the one on one conversation is one of the most vital rhythms that you can get in as an owner, as a manager. But I haven't found a, hey, this is the formula that every person needs to take because it's so unique. And I actually, there was a book I just read on one on ones and the power of one on ones, and the author goes through a really compelling framework for how often you should have it based on, you know, their tenure, their experience level, like your experience managing them. So if you have a new, you know, person that you've just hired out of school, brand new in their career, and first professional job, you might have a weekly one on one because they really don't know, you know, they don't know how to set up their calendar, their scheduling. They might know, not know the job. So you might have have a more frequent one on one for that first year, but then you have another executive where maybe they hire a director and they've known this person, they've worked with them for the last couple years, and they brought them onto the team and they know how they work, they know how they operate, and they've got the years of experience that they've, you know, they know their trade. Then maybe it's every two, three, four weeks where you're having this touch point, this coaching conversation where you're connecting with that person.

Phil Goodman [00:28:22]:
I just ran through this with a, one of my church clients. They have 90 plus employees and their average tenure is well over ten years. They're probably closer to, like, you know, twelve to 15 year average tenure. They have a lot of people that have been there a long time, like, founded the church.

Kenny Lange [00:28:38]:
That's impressive.

Phil Goodman [00:28:39]:
Yeah. And I went through it with them and because at first their senior pastor and their pastors were like, we don't want to, we can't commit a ton of time. That seems like a lot. And then they started going through the framework. Well, actually, yeah, like, maybe we already are kind of meeting once a month. And, you know, I've been managing this person for ten years. I don't need to meet with them once a week. That's just a little bit much for this industry.

Phil Goodman [00:29:04]:
But then I'm talking to someone else that's managing, you know, entry level, you know, assistants and other positions in the church that are brand new. First time they're managing them. And they were like, yes, like, we need to meet once a week. We need to have a structured coaching conversation once a week. And so it's just the point that people want those intentional moments together. And there is power when you actually put it on the calendar. When you schedule time, you say, this is your time. I am committing this 30 minutes to you.

Phil Goodman [00:29:40]:
I'm not going to be distracted by all the other stuff. I'm going to be focused on you and how can I help coach and develop and care for you. There's power in that and people, they grow to love that because there's an expectation that it's coming. So a lot of times it actually reduces drama because they know that that meeting's coming. And so instead of in passing them, just like, lob these shots over the wall where they're like, hey, I'm really frustrated at this thing. They know, hey, in two days, I'm going to be meeting with my boss and I'm going to start taking notes of what I want to talk to them about because I know I'm meeting with them. And then that reduces their stress, and it prepares both parties to enter into that conversation. So if there are things that you need to bring that are challenging, it actually helps reduce conflict because both parties are expecting a coaching conversation.

Phil Goodman [00:30:34]:
Yeah, case in point. Like, I've actually. One of the wins I've had lately is implementing this with my wife. And we were at a point where we've been married 19 years, right? 19 years. And we're still learning how to do this whole marriage thing, right. So for the last few months, we were just like, okay, we are having challenges with three kids and everything, finding time. Now, every Sunday night we have 2 hours. Like, this is our time.

Phil Goodman [00:31:01]:
I don't care if kids are watching a movie. I don't care what they're doing. But that's our time as our business planning time. It's our, hey, we need to talk about if there's things going on, and it's kind of that space where we both look forward to. And now we're able to, you know, it's a lot easier for us to wait till that meeting to then bring stuff up rather than just throw it out there, because I'm like, hey, I don't know if I'm going to have that meeting. So I just got to let her know, like, when I'm feeling vice versa, and now it's like walking through the.

Kenny Lange [00:31:32]:
Living room and just throw that and then keep on going.

Phil Goodman [00:31:35]:
We have all been there, so having it scheduled is so important. Any relationship having a dedicated time where this is our time and we are. I just heard someone the other day, too. I was reading something, and they said, your calendar is your scorecard. And that stood out to me. I'm like, yeah. Like, my weekly calendar is my scorecard. And so if I am wanting to make sure my team is thriving, I should be able to look at my calendar and be like, is that pointing to that? Like, how am I going to know that my team is starting by looking at my calendar? Am I prioritizing my time? Even if it's 15 minutes, them knowing, hey, I get 15 minutes and it's my time to bring up, and my coaching time is huge for them.

Kenny Lange [00:32:24]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I agree. I love talking about one on ones because I feel like that was the. That was one of the few things I did get right in my first company and developed on. I use a tool now with the personal roadmap and some other stuff with the system and soul framework that I was really happy when they came out with it. I think I've shared some of that with you on a previous call. So with that, number one, would you mind sharing the name of the book if. And we can link that up in the show notes if it comes to mind.

Kenny Lange [00:32:58]:
If not, we'll find it and we'll link that up so people can take a look and kind of figure that out. And then if my editor will harass me, I'll make sure that there's a landing page for the personal roadmap, if anybody's interested in that. One other thing, I would, because I love tools, things that help us make good on our intentions. A little bit of system for the soul, some may say, but it's a tool I've started using called reclaim AI. And they have a feature in there called smart meetings that was built for one on ones because they found that if you just wait until it's like, okay, we'll find a time, we'll find a time. And if you just keep saying that, it never happens. So now you can plug both, both people plug in their, connect their calendars and the system finds, based on their preferences, an ideal time. And if it doesn't work, you press no and it'll find the next available time based on those preferences to keep it on the calendar because it's much easier to reschedule and make sure you show up than it is to like, let's cancel this and then find another time.

Kenny Lange [00:34:11]:
It just goes right. And they, they actually just released an update that allows you to do that with, with groups, even if you have like a, you know, a small team or project team or something like that. But we'll link to that. So I love all of that. I also love that you're doing, doing that with your wife. My wife and I, actually, a month from today, as of this recording, we'll be hitting 15 years. So we're a little bit behind you. But now you're, I'm getting some ideas from the trail ahead.

Kenny Lange [00:34:41]:
So I appreciate you sharing that with me. And that's free for all you listeners. Just a little marriage advice there. So as people are thinking, okay, so there is, I can have one on ones with everybody. They don't have to happen all the time. As a matter of fact, one of the things I hear the most when people start a cadence of meetings, whether one on ones or even groups is it severely reduces those got a minute type meetings, which I'm sure you encounter quite a bit. I'm sure they're rampant. And your church clients, I just say that from personal experience.

Kenny Lange [00:35:17]:
So if somebody is saying, hey, this sounds great, I love this, what the heck do I talk about? Like, I get that question a lot. I don't know if you do as well, but what are maybe some suggested agenda items in these different types of conversations, especially if it never happened for you, if you weren't mentored or led this way and you're like, well, that sounds great. I think they would love it. The hell do I say? It can feel very intimidating until you get a few questions you should ask them or answer prior to the meeting. Well, what do you advise people to ask or think about going into those so they have an agenda?

Phil Goodman [00:36:01]:
Yeah, I always say your two biggest priorities, or I guess your two things that you're thinking about. How do I lead with curiosity and how do I provide clarity? Curiosity and clarity are the two biggest things that a manager can provide in those meetings. And starting with curiosity, it's, oh, what's the guy that wrote the seven effective habits?

Kenny Lange [00:36:27]:
Stephen Covey.

Phil Goodman [00:36:28]:
Yeah. Stephen Covey said, seek first to understand and then to be understood. That was one of, I think, his principles. And it's the same thing in these. So these are coaching conversations. If you look, and if you want even research on why coaching is so, like, needed or like, desired, look up Google's project oxygen. Google got rid of managers for a while and they were trying to prove that managers don't matter. And then really what happened is that they proved the opposite, that managers do matter.

Phil Goodman [00:36:59]:
And they then started, you know, why do people want managers? Why does everyone like Google want managers? And so then they started doing the study on that and they came up with a list of their main things. And the number one thing people said that they wanted from their manager was for them to be a good coach. That was the number one thing that people said, like the technical expertise was down subject matter expertise was down the list. It was on there, but it was down the list. The number one thing was to be a good coach. And so being a good coach, if you look at the definition of being a good coach, it really revolves around unlocking potential. There is potential in something or someone, and it's your job as a coach to unlock that potential. And for me, I really see that as stewardship.

Phil Goodman [00:37:48]:
Right. It's, you've been entrusted with something, and how do you get the most out of it. How do you realize the full potential of that person that has been entrusted to you to lead? And so in these meetings or just in general, you're trying to say, all right, how do I lead? With curiosity. How do I ask great questions that really understand, what is this person experiencing? What is their, it may be their workstation. What, maybe their work life, maybe their person personal life. You're trying to build some connection with them, and oftentimes, you know, you want to lead with, you know, a personal connection, rapport building. How are things going? How's your life? How's your wife? How are your kids? You know, whatever's top of mind that, you know, you want to show them that they, you care for them as a person, like, starting out with and then being curious of, you know, I often like, all right, I'm curious on what do they see as wins from the last, like, times in the last week or two that we met, what do they see as wins and what do they see as losses and what are roadblocks that they have that maybe I need to help with? And so I'm always curious, maybe a customer experience where you're curious, like, hey, how have your interactions with customers been lately? And they start telling a story, and then you're like, what do you need from that? You know? Or you maybe see a coaching moment that you can provide feedback, you know, in that, you know, situation, or they ask for that, but then, as well, like, you're leading with curiosity, but then you have to, at times, provide clarity in those moment moments because they're coming to you like, hey, I'm stuck, or, I don't understand this, or, what should I do next? Or, you know, how is, am I doing stuff that is tied to the mission? And you have to provide clarity of, like, all right, what is the goal of the company? You know, what is your role sometimes? What's your clarity on your performance? Clarity on, like, what tasks should be, you know, coming up next that they should be focused on? Yeah, you have to give them that clarity in the mean, so then they can go from there till that next meeting and crush it, hit their goals and do exactly what you want them to do. So, but you have to start with first curiosity and really understanding the current situation and the current reality and then provide, you know, the clarity that they need to really, you know, hit what they need to hit in the next couple of weeks.

Kenny Lange [00:40:17]:
That's, that's really good. I love that. And I want to ask a very leading question but I know somebody's thinking it's like, okay, that's, that's great, but maybe I don't have all the answers for my direct reports or something like that. What do you tell people that when they're hearing, well, I got to be a coach. Okay, well, that means I need to know some things. And maybe I don't know as much as I do. Or they, you know, maybe they are recently promoted or recently started the organization and this is their first time to hire and lead, truly lead people. And they're like, they're going to figure out I'm dumber than a sack of rocks.

Kenny Lange [00:40:58]:
That imposter syndrome sets in. What do you say to those founders, those leaders that might feel like they don't have everything to be a coach or to be coach?

Phil Goodman [00:41:10]:
Like, yeah, one, I totally get that feeling. I was a year into my last w two job, and the CEO founder approached me and said, hey, Phil, can I have you manage it as well? And I was like, it, okay, I have zero knowledge about it, but let's go. You need someone? I can do it. And so I had one it person that was an expert that was reporting to me, and he was overseeing the it departments for, you know, we were at 100 employees then and grew to over 200 by the time, in that time that I was overseeing it. But I really had to put on that coaching hat with zero technical expertise in it. But knowing the business and knowing, okay, how do I help prioritize this person's work? And sometimes it's just asking questions and being very curious of like, okay, so you're telling me we need to solve this security problem. Tell me more about the problem. Why is this urgent now? And I had, in getting that and being curious, sometimes it would lead him to a different decision because he starts talking about it and really starts thinking about it.

Phil Goodman [00:42:27]:
And I'm like, well, how much? What would the cost benefit be for doing that as opposed to this? And is that worth it? What's the time commitment? And all of a sudden it's unlocking those things with him where he's like, oh, yeah, I didn't actually think about that. Yeah, maybe we should wait. And maybe that is more of a priority to do this other thing rather than kind of roll out this because of where. And sometimes I had context to this organization that he didn't have that was helpful for him to know, like, hey, you know, we're going to be doing an acquisition in the next month or two. Maybe we hold off on doing this whole rollout until after acquisition. He just didn't know that. So I had to advocate for them or even budget wise. But I get it.

Phil Goodman [00:43:13]:
It's hard at times when you know technically what the person's doing, but you can ask great questions and even just using your business sense and business expertise, a lot of times you can answer the question, especially business owners that have worn all the hats. If you founded the company, you probably have had your fingers and everything and probably can help them to at least a point of where they're getting what they need to or pointing them in the right direction. But there might be some times where you have to bring in an outside consultant. Like a lot of times people bring me in because they have an HR person that has zero HR experience. They've been assigned HR by the CEO, say, hey, can you run with payroll and benefits and everything? And it's their first time. And then the CEO's eventually gets to the point where I don't know how to develop this person or even like create an HR function for the future. And so that's a lot of times where they bring me in or an outside consultant where they're, you know, advisor coach that can then provide some of that development that's really specific to that person. And so sometimes that is, you know, another option that that person can do is like, hey, I'll coach you to a point, but then what are some other development opportunities? But I will say this, uh, I, I really challenge people to control, you know, their own development.

Phil Goodman [00:44:41]:
To own their own development. Um, I see so many people in, you know, in, in these positions that are looking for their boss to like, hey, it's your job to develop me, but at the end of the day, it's your career. Like, you have to work on in prior. If you want to be developed in this and you're not getting it from your manager, you have to own that and you have to go find that and not just expect that that person is going to be the person that's going to coach you and develop you and give you everything you need for your whole career and then get frustrated. Because what I see is they get frustrated with that leader when they're not and they're, ok, this is your responsibility. And then they get frustrated because they weren't doing it themselves. So it has to be both sides. Like the coach has to be focused and helping develop that person, but then that person has to be owning their own development as well.

Kenny Lange [00:45:33]:
The coachee, yeah, I love that. It's both parties responsibility to see that development, one book I would highly recommend, it helped me a ton with that because I struggled with that very thing of, like, I, I kind of have my own instincts about this, but I don't know how to develop somebody else. Is, uh, the coaching habit by Michael Bungay Stanier.

Phil Goodman [00:46:00]:
Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:46:01]:
Um, and, um, huge advocate of suppress the advice monsters. Yeah, I've got mine back there right in the middle under my ironman, uh, cowbell. But, um, it's phenomenal, especially if you're just getting started. The questions are so easy to wait into, and you'll be surprised at their power. This has been incredibly helpful, Phil. If somebody is wanting to get started with being more coach like, they're the chief everything officer, the founder, the owner, the executive director or senior pastor, even. And they say, yes, okay, I do need help, but I want to make sure I'm not wasting money or being a poor steward of our finances by hiring somebody and just letting them run and then turn over. Because there's all sorts of statistics I'm sure you could cite forwards and backwards about the cost of a bad hire, whether that's their fault or yours or a little bit of both.

Kenny Lange [00:46:59]:
But if somebody wanted to get started in being more coach like and figuring out how to do that, what could they do in the next 24 hours with little to no money to get started?

Phil Goodman [00:47:11]:
Yeah. Two things. One, put a recurring meeting on your calendar with that person. Just schedule it, put it on there. It could be 15 minutes. You just start with anything. Just get it out there. And it could be 15 minutes every two weeks and maybe even label it coaching session like or one on one this and put it with that person and let them know, hey, I want to invest more into you, and I am scheduling a regular touchpoint with you.

Phil Goodman [00:47:40]:
This is your meeting, and it's my, you know, our chance to, you know, chat and see how I can help coach and develop you and, and encourage you. So put the recurring meeting on the calendar. And then two, have a shared document or somewhere where you're taking notes together. So it could be a shared Google Doc, it could be a word doc you're collaborating on and use that as your playbook, your one on one doc, where both parties can put in talking points. They can put in, you know, after you just can put in a few quick notes, just one shared space that you can go to. I even saw a recent client start one on one Slack channels each. You know, the manager and employee, they just started an individual one on one Slack channel, and now we're telling them like, hey, if, you know, there's a talking point you want to talk about in that meeting, just throw it in that Slack channel as like, you know, topic for next meeting. This, this and that.

Phil Goodman [00:48:39]:
And then one, it, you know, provides, you know, when you write things down, if you have a goal you're talking about, you're more likely to actually hit that goal if you're writing them down. And two, it will help remind you guys of what you've been talking about in the past and so you can have a follow up. You're like, hey, I remember we talked about, I see that we talked about this two months ago. You know, I'd love a follow up on that. Like, how's that going? A lot of times we'll forget and then, you know, we won't remember, I got what happened. Or you can use an AI tool for that document, but have one shared thing, you know, document source that you can take notes on. The one on one, just make it lightweight to start with. But yeah, the meeting and shared Doc and you should be on your way.

Kenny Lange [00:49:25]:
I love that. That's a great and very easy place to start. If somebody wanted to know more about you, more about your work with talent realized and how you're helping people, where would you send them?

Phil Goodman [00:49:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. I love building HR departments and working with CEO's that are on that and that are thriving and drama and reducing the drama. If you're interested in that, go to my website, talentrealized co and book a time. My normal kind of rhythms is doing an initial just call to see all right, what's going on? What are the challenges you're facing? Could I be a good solution guide in those challenges? And then if so, then I usually do a big HR assessment with prospects to really get a read on the health of the organization before ever starting an engagement or even sending a proposal. So, you know, the health of your organization, kind of the top priorities for your HR function moving forward.

Kenny Lange [00:50:26]:
Gotcha. Love that. And then also we'll link up, uh, your, not just your website, but your LinkedIn as well, so people can go follow you, see, see the kind of content you're putting out, sharing and things like that. Or just say hi, um, and see, check on you, see how you're doing. Uh, so thank you so much, Phil, for, for coming on and sharing your wisdom and experience and hope to have you back again in, in the future. Hopefully the feelings mutual there. Um, but for all of you that are listening, thank you so much for taking time out of your, your day, your afternoon, middle of the night, I don't know. But whatever it is, I'm grateful for it.

Kenny Lange [00:51:05]:
If you found this helpful or impactful, please like share subscribe. This helps it get more visibility with other people who are just like you that could benefit from this, and it's a way that you can pay it forward. And won't that just make you feel warm and fuzzy inside? Because that's what we're all after, I think. At least that's what I'm told. But until next time, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead. We'll see ya.