How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Kyle Mealy [00:00:00]:
So that's where I think they get stuck, is, you know, you bring on this $60,000, you know, we're going to pound on all the doors and cold call salesperson and like, you know, the first thing I say to them is, when's the last time you took a cold call? They're like, never. And I'm like, so you're going to spend 60,000 and commission someone to really do this with no process and no marketing? You call me in three months when you're annoyed.

Kenny Lange [00:00:27]:
Welcome to the How Leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I'm your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Kyle Mealy. He is the founder and CEO of next level coaching. I love coaches. Yay. Um, Kyle is a fractional chief revenue officer. That means money. For those of you who don't know.

Kenny Lange [00:00:50]:
Uh, he helps businesses, uh, with their client services and recurring revenue, uh, structured businesses. So it could be SaaS, it could be service based. You probably could help me. So maybe I'm about to get some free coaching and therapy. But he helps those organizations that are between 1 million and 10 million find profitability and growth. His company, next level coaching, has a 100% success rate. That's 100 with a 20 in doubling top line revenue in three years or less. That is incredible.

Kenny Lange [00:01:23]:
Including an average first year growth rate of 30.4%. And they achieve ten x profitability. If Kyle hasn't written a book, let's hope he does soon. He has sat in the COO, CEO, CRO, and probably some more O's seats with businesses from startup to 26 million in revenue. Welcome to the show, Kyle.

Kyle Mealy [00:01:48]:
Wow, I sound way more impressive than I feel. And there is a book coming.

Kenny Lange [00:01:56]:
Oh, my gosh. You heard it here first, folks. Also, you might want to give your executive assistant a bonus for this really flattering bio. No.

Kyle Mealy [00:02:11]:
Because I can write it.

Kenny Lange [00:02:14]:
Well, tell me, Kyle, what is on your mind?

Kyle Mealy [00:02:18]:
Well, truly, it's funny I didn't tell you about the book. The book is deadline is June 1, so it'll be coming out this summer. Oh, yeah, it's really happening. And so I literally have been really chewing on how to help the small business owner community stop thinking about marketing and sales as two distinct departments and start thinking of it as a revenue department where marketing and sales equals revenue. That's what's like. That is all consuming all the time.

Kenny Lange [00:02:53]:
What's on my mind, I love it. And I'll probably poke and prod at this because you and I have talked outside of officially being recorded about the work that I do, and that's one of the first things I do with companies and nonprofits, is, let's talk about your chart. And with my for profit clients, that question comes up. Do we have a marketing leader and a sales leader sitting at the senior leadership team, or is it a singular department and it's a 50 50? It's a total coin toss as to what my clients are going to choose. Now, it sounds like you have some really well informed thoughts based on the glowing bio, all the things and the numbers with stuff. But tell me, what have you seen be sort of like the prevailing wisdom about those being separate departments? Because it sounds like you're not advocating for that in most cases. I don't know if there's a, like a never say always and never. What's the prevailing wisdom around those departments and their contribution to an organization?

Kyle Mealy [00:04:13]:
Yeah, I'll start. Big picture. Come down to the small picture. When I was thinking about this chief revenue officer concept, it had always been really attributed to sales and enterprise and upsell, which I felt like was not relevant to the small business community. None of us don't have that extreme of revenue streams where we need that amplification. If you have a chief revenue officer who's looking at the sales side and internal operations, it kind of requires a marketing person over here. But since most small businesses were wearing so many hats, we don't really have the luxury of being able to afford an executive marketing leader and an executive sales leader. Now, do I believe that it's always chief revenue officer or revenue in department? Always.

Kyle Mealy [00:05:01]:
No. I do think there's breakpoints and there's a maturity of a business where it makes sense to split those because they do it. Higher end businesses in the 50 mil, 25 mil, it starts to need two different leaders. But the proposition I'm having is below that. You can't afford both at the level you need to get where you want to go.

Kenny Lange [00:05:29]:
Some are starting, in my experience, some are starting with the unified department, not out of a strategic choice, but out of the set. Like we. There's like three of us, or, you know, you know, that's maybe a little bit of hyperbole, but the. It's from a necessity, not out of as Will Ferrell, you know, posing as George W. Bush. Strategy. Strategy. Lockbox.

Kenny Lange [00:05:59]:
Sorry, had to complete the sketch. But how are you approaching it from a strategic thought? Because I think some people are just going about it because, like, well, what else are we going to do. I don't have, I am the, I'm the chief everything officer. I'm marketer, salesperson, customer service, and chief trash collector.

Kyle Mealy [00:06:22]:
That's where I think I, like, have the most fun in what I do. And it's where I think the theory, I've done it, and now I'm continuing to prove that theory is there is this moment when the see everything officer is trying not to be that. And so one of the things that most see everything officers, specifically in small b, two b business, which is where this model, I think, applies most, they have to pass something off. And I think one of the first things they consider passing off is sales to another salesperson. They try and have their first sales hirever or they have their assistant, or they bring on. And I'm being playful here, but usually it's a niece or a nephew who takes over marketing or is that relative?

Kenny Lange [00:07:06]:
They're real good on Facebook.

Kyle Mealy [00:07:11]:
And then they kind of get stuck because they never clear enough revenue to afford a full team or a full leader. And they've kind of taken on this overhead. And, I mean, we know enough about see everything officers that they don't really, uh, build process or systems or scale, like, really know how to reproduce themselves. Uh, and so that's where I think they get stuck, is, you know, you bring on this $60,000, you know, we're going to pound on all the doors and cold call salesperson. And, like, you know, the first thing I say to them is, when's the last time you took the cold call? They're like, never. And I'm like, so you're going to spend 60,000 and commission someone to really do this with no process and no marketing? You call me in three months when you're annoyed. Like, that's just how that goes. So I think that's, like, the entry point to where I started to realize, like, there is a necessity here already.

Kyle Mealy [00:07:59]:
But if we actually just think of it from that place, I think we build differently. And we don't just grab what seems like the right next step. We actually take steps.

Kenny Lange [00:08:11]:
Interesting. Yeah. So it's really by, almost by design or by intention that we're stepping, not just, uh. Well, this is what's in front of me, so I guess I'll do it. And I do think that there, there's probably a time and a place to just, like, just deal with what's in front of you. Um, but at some point, you've got to turn the corner and say, I actually, I have agency over this, and I get to choose this. And if I were to choose it, how might I approach it if it wasn't, you know, didn't feel like a choice being made for me or something happening to me is something I'm helping to make happen.

Kyle Mealy [00:08:51]:
Right.

Kenny Lange [00:08:51]:
So a lot of your coaching is pivoting their mindset towards, you know, the business isn't happening to you. You can make things happen in your business.

Kyle Mealy [00:09:02]:
Yeah. That's why I've kept coaching in the brand name. You know, I'm a marketer at heart, and so I keep having this moment where I'm like, do I get rid of it? And it's like, no. I feel like I spend a lot of time helping the chief everything officer or CEO, lovely CEO's think differently about marketing and sales, and I find just as much time on the leadership teams that me and my team are a part of that we're helping the chief operating officer, the number two, think differently about marketing and sales because most of the time they're frustrated with sales because salespeople don't generally think in reality or in process, which annoys that that role pretty heavily. And marketing feels like a guess. It not annoys that role. And so I kind of spend half of my time, you know, helping people think about, what if we put this all into one bucket and thought of it as one system, one process? Now there's no finger pointing.

Kenny Lange [00:09:55]:
Yeah, because now we're wearing the same jersey, we're on the same team, but protector. Yeah. Yeah. You can't get into the silo. The departmental territorialism that, where the heck that comes from? Hopefully, at this point, people realize that's not just ineffective, it's also stupid.

Kyle Mealy [00:10:15]:
But what we were first talking about is, where did this come from? Well, that's kind of how most of us saw businesses being run. Marketing is marketing. We do branding, and then sales guys do sales things. They go out there and they do the icky thing we don't want to talk about. What's funny is brand marketing and small business doesn't work anymore. And pounding on the doors doesn't work anymore. But we're still thinking our business this way. That's like, literally what set me into the blue ocean of this space.

Kenny Lange [00:10:41]:
So I hate when people say, um, I'm gonna play devil's advocate. I'm like, look, he's got enough. He doesn't need any more. Um, but I could see someone, and I'm saying this because, you know, I. I've been guilty of thinking this. I've also had clients say this back to me during this sort of exercise of like, okay, well, we're gonna make it one. And then we're gonna have a sales leader report to like a CRO type position or revenue director type position. And we're going to have a sales leader and a marketing leader report.

Kenny Lange [00:11:13]:
Well, it's, did you really change anything or did you just give them both a boss? Right. Like you could make an argument and I've had it made at me. I'd like to say to me, but it was more at me that, well, it's not really any different. You still got sales, you still got marketing. Nothing changed. You just changed how high that went up in the chart. We're still going to be territorial about our teams now instead of our departments. How do you come at that? To make sure it really is a true, we're joining forces, we're on the same side.

Kenny Lange [00:11:51]:
If we're protecting anything, we're protecting each other.

Kyle Mealy [00:11:55]:
I have two interesting things that I think about in that question, so I'm really grateful for the question. Thought number one is if you really do have the budget for a strong sales manager and a strong marketing manager and an individual contributor line for marketing and sales, you're starting to knock on the door where this model makes less sense. I have yet to find that happen. Really sub 10 million where it makes sense to do it. And you're confusing a sales leader with a sales executive. Right. There are, there's a big difference for your sales manager or sales executive. So just, I want to, I want to name that.

Kyle Mealy [00:12:33]:
Um, and there is more than one way to crack this egg, but I will say rarely. Or is that really an issue? You really talking about a manager? Um, and what I would say to the other part, the other thought I have is we do one in. One of the things I bring, you know, to my clients is a simple, singular attribution model. No longer are we measuring events. One off. Were not measuring paid advertising in the marketing lane. Paid advertising fits in revenue because at the end of the day, especially, again, I talk specifically b two b business, b two c. It's a little, it's different.

Kyle Mealy [00:13:15]:
You can use some of these models, but it doesn't work as well. And marketing has to generate the interest in the awareness, sales has to consume that interest in awareness, and they have to speak the same language and they have to both want to win. And if I'm protecting my ad budget and trying to claim that it worked, and the sales guys are saying those leads sucked, you're still going back to mom or dad, whoever's at the top anyway, right? Someone has to make a decision, which counted because someone's writing a check for more advertising spend and more salespeople. And so what I say is make it one simple bucket of attribution. We don't have marketing and sales team meetings because, again, under this kind of 15, $10 million umbrella, if you're at eight people, that's enough to cover one person. One person can manage eight people if they're an executive. That isn't end of life. And that's a pretty healthy department for revenue marketers.

Kyle Mealy [00:14:10]:
And six sales, and you're doing fine. And I would say this is the paid advertising working. Who knows better than the salespeople, right? The salespeople should be fighting just as hard for it. And so, like, it's not a referee game, it's a team game. And I think that's the fun that, that's the fun I like to have. I love when a salesperson is advocating for paid advertising spend.

Kenny Lange [00:14:36]:
Right. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, they want, I want to say this with all due affection, because I've been a salesperson for a long time. The salespeople are lazy. But here's the thing is, I think I heard it was on a Facebook or Instagram reel, I think it was Alex Hermosi. And he talked about some of the best, some of the best people. He knows they're lazy. And he goes, but here's why that's an asset, is because they will find usually the most efficient way to get something done with min, like to maximize the return for minimal effort. Right.

Kenny Lange [00:15:22]:
So they should be advocating for, no, no, no, spend more of this ad money thing because it's just bringing people to me. And I'm, I'm closing ten deals a week instead of five deals a week, which means my commission check is a heck of a lot bigger. So automatically, I should be a fan. Nothing say, I mean, obviously, but if it doesn't work, then say, well, actually, I get the opportunity to help marketing improve it as they're bringing people to my door.

Kyle Mealy [00:15:52]:
Yep. The people that come in from paid advertising keep saying blank. Can we tweak the message? Because I say this right?

Kenny Lange [00:16:01]:
Or if it's like marketing, you're creating a promise we can't actually deliver on, which I know is typically what, as, you know, salespeople are more accused of, bye. The service or operations department of, like, you told them we could do what for them. There's no way or how fast did you say we could get that out? And it's like, okay, well, I don't know what crack pipe you hit, but.

Kyle Mealy [00:16:23]:
We can't do that well, and that's fuel for marketing. And so that's one of the reasons why I kind of advocate for this, like, trim down, you know, function. Because if. If an operations issue has to go through sales and then marketing, like, why not just shorten that cycle of information?

Kenny Lange [00:16:42]:
Sure. So you mentioned, like, sort of an upper limit where this model of a unified department starts to, I don't want to say break apart, but I do think it's when the question of, does this still work for us? Probably needs to be introduced to a quarterly or annual type strategic planning session of if we're going to make a big change. Like, does this still serve us? You can ask that, at what point does a founder need to start thinking about, okay, I need someone else sitting in the CRO type. And obviously, I think using chief whatever below a certain amount is just you trying to have a cooler title. Um, and that's a podcast for a different day. A whole different one. A whole different one. And that's where I'm just going to piss off a bunch of people and go down to zero listeners.

Kenny Lange [00:17:42]:
Um, that's okay. Still got my mom. But the. But when does it make sense for that founder, or maybe co founders to go, you know what? I. I actually kind of think we need to start moving out of this seat so we can cultivate large relationships, start working more on the business. Maybe it's product service innovation, um, or something like that. And. And they need to start tiptoeing out, even if whoever they hire likely will not be able to do as good a job as them.

Kenny Lange [00:18:19]:
Because usually if you have a really strong visionary, it's hard to beat them in the sales game because they are so compelling and they have such intimate knowledge of what it is that they're doing in authority.

Kyle Mealy [00:18:34]:
Because if they're saying something happened, there's anybody who can make sure something happens, it's them, right?

Kenny Lange [00:18:40]:
You can trust their words. So if the upper limit is ten to 15, when does that question of, we might need to get somebody else in here? When do you recommend that question start being introduced to evaluate for the right timing?

Kyle Mealy [00:18:55]:
Just to clarify, are you talking when the CEO is out of sales and marketing, or you're talking, someone like me is moving out and saying, this is, we're at the next stage?

Kenny Lange [00:19:06]:
Yeah. When does that founder say, I no longer need to be on the chart accountability chart fulfilling the role of marketer and chief marketer and chief salesperson, that revenue person. We need to bring somebody else in who can start to take over the activity and maybe start building a team if we keep growing at this rate.

Kyle Mealy [00:19:32]:
Yeah, I would say, you know, if, if I'm the CEO and this is conversation I'm having with one of my clients right now, like the roadmap starts to be clear. When you start to get to that team of eight would be one of the, one of the issues, right. Cause now you're starting to add layers of management and that's not gonna work necessarily for fractional or for the kind of granularity you're starting to get to. The other thing is when you start to spread the, there's going to be tension, especially in the monthly recurring and high ticket, there's going to be tension brewing on the operation side and you're starting to have that understanding of retention as a value driver in the business. And so it's when I feel that the business has got three wings is when I usually bring it in. There's kind of this sales, operations, sales and marketing. At first it kind of starts there. Kind of one is what I believe.

Kyle Mealy [00:20:24]:
And then you start to split. And now you maybe have a really strong sales leader, a really strong marketing leader who might be able to take the seat, you know, the shared seat. And then, you know, there's a weakness. So there'll be something that has to backfill here a little bit. Sometimes you can just kind of hold on to that for a little bit longer. But it becomes really obvious when there's tension in three different sections and thats when its like, okay, lets split this. Lets have your sales leader who can take care of sales and sales ops and a marketing leader and just bring them all up to the executive level. But again, its also a revenue question and I would always ask it in terms of profitability, I would always ask when can you afford a half a million dollars in salary? Because if youre talking a real marketing exec at 10 million, youre talking to $200,000 person.

Kyle Mealy [00:21:08]:
And sales leaders are notorious for getting north of 200 at that stage, at least that's been my experience. So if you can take a half million on in salary, okay, let's have that conversation. It's rare though. This is my, this is kind of my point on this whole thing is maybe you do two fractionals, but when you have two fractionals, that's the CEO sitting over top having that conversation.

Kenny Lange [00:21:33]:
Right. Which is sort of plunging them right back down and it's going right back.

Kyle Mealy [00:21:36]:
To where you were. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:21:37]:
So, yeah, it's just accepted. You got more overhead.

Kyle Mealy [00:21:41]:
And then I would also look at, you know, how strong is the, you know, the number two? That's the other thing that I sense is when the number. Go ahead.

Kenny Lange [00:21:51]:
I was gonna say so like that. Integrator operator, second in command, do you think in, in your opinion and experience, are you recommending that people seek out, even if it is a fractional or a part time second in command prior to looking at this particular position?

Kyle Mealy [00:22:11]:
I have one. My business is still fairly small, but what I love about my business and the way I treat my business is exactly the same advice id give my clients. I am in that one to 10 million service high ticket offering monthly recurring revenue. So you darn right I have an integrator number two. It's fractional. I believe in my own model and I have a fractional chief revenue officer. Right. Like, and I, and I think that gives me a lot of authority to say, yeah, you better, because, like, not.

Kenny Lange [00:22:41]:
Everyone can eat your own dog food.

Kyle Mealy [00:22:43]:
And not everyone can sit in, like, listen, I can do both. I've been an, I've been an integrator and a pastoral or operating officer. And it took energy. I didn't gain energy. And that was the big moment for me. And I was feeling that as this business took off, that I needed to, like, let go of that and just say, there's people who do this better, who not how. Let's go. Like, that's why I built this business is it's what I'm telling the other people.

Kyle Mealy [00:23:11]:
How can I not tell that to myself? So definitely recommend.

Kenny Lange [00:23:16]:
And in case anybody's wondering about the who not how phenomenal book from Dan Sullivan cannot recommend it highly enough. I actually, prior to that book being released, was already exposed to the impact filter, which he talks about in that book. I had been serving as a second in command for my church, and I had a flaming visionary of a lead pastor. And I got to the place where I was like, you cannot just go announcing things at meetings that we haven't talked about. Also, if you want us to do anything in this church, you need to fill out an impact filter and then we'll talk about it. Because that lets me know you actually think that this is a really good idea and we should explore it together.

Kyle Mealy [00:24:04]:
You are valuing it.

Kenny Lange [00:24:06]:
Yeah. And I was like, if you think this is such a great idea, then you can expend the five minutes it takes to fill a one page document out. Until I see that, I'm going to assume it's a great idea and I may go, hey, I think that's worth writing down or something like that. I was like, but it's not coming into a real meeting and getting explored and getting my time until we do that. And once we did that, it just, it streamlined so many things. So I know that that's a little bit of a tangent, but for any of you, founder, CEO's early stage, go look up who not how and the impact filter and things like that, it's just really practical advice to move by leaps and bounds and give yourself a break from needing to be the sage of all ages as well. Because I think a lot of founders think, and I say this as someone who's started two companies, I got to understand every minute detail of my business and my organization. Otherwise I'm stupid and I'm less than or, you know, how could I hire somebody else to do it if I don't know how to do it first? And it sort of releases you from that unnecessary burden.

Kenny Lange [00:25:23]:
But so somebody's hitting, maybe it sounds like seven to eight people, maybe about a million dollars in revenue.

Kyle Mealy [00:25:31]:
No. In their department for to replace someone like me, seven or eight people in the marketing and sales department. It's when it's time to look at replacing me with someone full time or multiple sales marketing executives. But I would say from the visionary seat or from the CEO seat, it really starts when you are thinking about that first sales hire, that first marketing hire. It's when you are, and sometimes they have one, they have a salesperson and it has been stagnant. I can't tell you how many I come into where it's been. 2 million, 2 million, 2 million, or rather 2.12.22. .3 and they're not even keeping up with inflation.

Kyle Mealy [00:26:08]:
But we're growing and they want to get past another sales hire, but they can't. And they keep coming into the room saying where's the marketing strategy? Where's the marketing strategy? Like, that's, when you call me like that, that's, that's the problem I solve. Gotcha.

Kenny Lange [00:26:22]:
But in terms of when you are that, that CEO founder and you're thinking about backing out and hiring that, those initial hires, it sounds like youre probably starting to encroach on that $1 million revenue mark.

Kyle Mealy [00:26:42]:
Thats when I usually see it. For those who have really, theyre not overly optimized on the process side and theyre not overly in the sales seat, theyre starting to think about growing beyond that 1 million mark. Theres plenty of owner operator founders who just have their really strong operations person or two and they just do great work and they don't want to grow. But if you're like, I keep banging my head against wall, I'm always in a sales meeting. The team isn't getting my attention. That's when it's right.

Kenny Lange [00:27:09]:
You've just been doing it through brute force almost, and sheer force of talent and whatever your giftedness is.

Kyle Mealy [00:27:16]:
And you throw some of your operations people in on sales calls every once in a while. You didn't finish the deck in time type stuff like that.

Kenny Lange [00:27:26]:
Yeah, we'll pray for them. Um, now, one of the things that I've, I've witnessed, um, both in, in my time and, you know, marketing agency, uh, rev ops agency, I hate that word. But that's okay.

Kyle Mealy [00:27:41]:
Yeah, I shy away from it, but I'm with you.

Kenny Lange [00:27:44]:
Yeah, you almost have to use it now, but, um, you know, begrudgingly. But, well, what I've seen, and I've had this conversation on multiple episodes about, you know, everybody thinks I need everything all at once, or what. What is Apple doing? What's Tesla up to? How are they thinking about hiring salespeople? I'm like, shut up. Like, they're nothing like you, dude.

Kyle Mealy [00:28:10]:
Get your first billion and let's talk. Let's just, you hit your first. Let's talk.

Kenny Lange [00:28:15]:
Right. So I'm an advocate of where are you in a lifecycle stage, either as an organization, as a, as a team, obviously, you know, we got like the four or five stages of team development. Um, but you also have your own development as a, as an individual leader and contributor. What should people be looking for from an initial sales person? Maybe potential leader? Because that 200,000 plus dollar executive is not the right fit. Even though they may be like killer at what they do. They may be killer if they're in an enterprise situation with established product market Fitzhen and brand recognition. There's some people who can kill it there. And I take nothing away from them, but it takes something different with the initial hires on your way up, when you're still scrapping.

Kenny Lange [00:29:07]:
So what do you advise your clients on when they're thinking about those sort of hires?

Kyle Mealy [00:29:13]:
I always talk about numbers, and the numbers will tell you when you're ready. The numbers will tell you when, um, you have enough pipeline to sustain in your, predicting your revenue out a little bit further ahead than you've ever been before. And you can say, all right, if I add 15 into my pipe, I know I'm getting five out the bottom over the next three to six months because I know my sales cycle and my duration of each stage, and I can say, it looks healthy. And now I can invest. Now I'm investing in that salesperson, not just grabbing a warm body. And so I think that's step one. And then you're right about that. Seasoned professional.

Kyle Mealy [00:29:50]:
I don't look at them with like untrusting eyes. It's just, I know that it takes a lot and a really good sales.org to perform really well. And if you're just expecting that here, when we're in the startup mode, it's probably not going to go well because you're used to having marketing collateral or a talk track or some sort of funnel that's already working. A very distinct, distinct comp plan. How many times I've interviewed a sales guy or gal coming in, he's like, so what's the comp plan? And the visionary and founder was like, it was me yesterday. And so, like that. Those are red flags for me. If you, if you're not ready to start thinking about those kind of questions, you're going to run into brick walls and you're going to run into a lot of spent money on people that, you know, sell you well, but don't know, aren't ready to sell for you.

Kyle Mealy [00:30:35]:
And so what I look for is, sorry.

Kenny Lange [00:30:40]:
No, no, I love that. That's worth people rewinding, um, because I've seen that so many times and I've witnessed, you know, friends and, and clients and people who have spent good money on people who, who genuinely were talented, but they were better at selling them in the interview than they were at being able to adapt to sell for them. Um, and I've just, I've never heard it that way, but that is, someone should go out and get that tattooed on them.

Kyle Mealy [00:31:09]:
Now I feel like I've had it on my forehead because I feel like I say it a lot. So what I would say in summary of it is if you're really trying to find that first sales hire, you're not looking for hungry. You think you want hungry. What you really want is somebody who values relationships. You could always teach someone who cares how to do this work. Now, hunger, to me, screams sales. And in b, two b, high trust, high ticket sales. The hungry salesperson is repulsive to CEO's.

Kyle Mealy [00:31:47]:
But if you can hold a conversation and present care and concern that still shows that's still that the behaviors end up looking a lot like hungry. They just have a different intent and a different impact. So a hungry person is a picked up on. Oh, yeah. You know, let's set our next appointment. It's like, wow, it sounds like you had a busy week ahead. Can we just. Can we do this next week? Does that work for you? Next week is better.

Kyle Mealy [00:32:16]:
Like, it's okay to show you care in the sales process. Turns out it goes much better. So I would focus on someone in relation who cares about the relationship. So it's not how good they are breaking down doors, it's how good they are at smiling and waving and doing that extra piece. Did they send you the email after the interview saying, you know what? I genuinely appreciate what you're doing here. And there's a big difference between the rote one that see what you're supposed to do and the one that feels like they captured a tangible piece of your story and really cared about it.

Kenny Lange [00:32:48]:
Yeah, I heard someone, and I'm sure it's in a book or something like that. And I apologize to whoever I'm stealing this from. Thank you, Austin Kleon. I am stealing, like, an artist. But, um. Great book. But the, um, the idea of early on, you want to hire missionaries, and later on you can hire mercenaries.

Kyle Mealy [00:33:13]:
Oh, I like that. I might steal that one. That one. That's worth rewinding.

Kenny Lange [00:33:18]:
There you go. That. That's another tattoo. Um, but. But early on, I mean, it really is about, we're rallying around. We're doing a thing. We're coming together, we small band of brothers sort of thing, like, and sisters. But, like, we're all coming around this concept, this idea.

Kenny Lange [00:33:37]:
We're taking on the giants of our industry or our niche. And there's a better way. We're selling because we're scrappy and we're nimble and we can pivot and we can iterate and we can customize. And we don't have a billion customers, so we can treat you like you're our only. Like you can do that. And there are people who are very, very good at that are usually close.

Kyle Mealy [00:34:00]:
They're personal relations and connections. And, you know, as much as the CEO wants that wolf, the mercenary, the value is really when they take care of those personal relationships and increase the value of them versus use them.

Kenny Lange [00:34:18]:
Yes, because for most entrepreneurs that make it past the, you know, all of the failure thresholds of, you know, the first 18 months and then five years or, you know, getting to past a million dollars, you know, which is, I, I know it seems small compared to all these other multi million, a billion dollars. Like, that's no small feat. Like, it's, it's hard, it's a grind. It's gonna cost you something to get there. But most of the time, I've seen a lot of these CEO's and these founders, they're just, they're so daggum good at sitting and being with that person, casting vision, really hearing them, maintaining like they are beloved by their clients because they bought into the relationship, not the transaction, and they're able to hold on to that. And I do think that's why so many of those CEO's and those founders feel, I would not even say trepidation sometimes. There's real fear that if I put somebody else in position to develop these relationships, they're either not going to do it because they don't care about that. They care about the paycheck I'm going to give them on the commission.

Kenny Lange [00:35:35]:
Which is why you should have some sort of incentive for longevity of time with them, with the company. But they may also just like, I'm just kind of in it. I want to.

Kyle Mealy [00:35:48]:
What do you need?

Kenny Lange [00:35:49]:
Okay, cool. Can we do it? Great, let's go on. But it wasn't like you don't know where their kids, you know, like, go to school and when they're, you know, and what sport they really care about. Like, but these founders, like, it is remarkable how much they learn and know and care. And for the most part, it's not 100%, but for the most part, it's sincere, which they know, can't fake that.

Kyle Mealy [00:36:16]:
Food on the table. It's putting food in their team's mouths. Like, they, like, you cannot fake that. And so to your point, you said it again, it's the, like, if you're, if you think you have a mercenary who's waiting for to be fed and you don't, and they're asking about, you know, how aggressive is the comp plan. Like, they're probably not going to take your loved ones, the people in your tight circle, and take really good care of them. So.

Kenny Lange [00:36:40]:
Yeah, and they, they may be great once you're at 15, 20 million. Yeah.

Kyle Mealy [00:36:45]:
Different world.

Kenny Lange [00:36:46]:
And when you get, and this is why I advocate for, it's not about, like, right people, wrong people. I know we have right people, right seats. Um, I do advocate for that, but it's gotta be about the, the fit of the person for the moment, not just the organization, but for the organization at this time. Because what we need now is different than what we're gonna need later. We know that intuitively with children. Right? Like, I'm not letting my ten year old drive a car, and I'm not holding them accountable for, you know, putting food on the table or doing some of the bigger chores of lifting something heavy or whatever it is. But I've made it appropriate to them. And we'll know that as parents, at least if you're a better than decent parent, you know that.

Kenny Lange [00:37:36]:
But we forget about that. We get in the business world, and suddenly our business needs something. It's no different than the development of a, of a child, to be honest with you.

Kyle Mealy [00:37:44]:
Yep, I think that's really well said.

Kenny Lange [00:37:47]:
What is the first step somebody should be taking in the next 24 hours? Little to no money. If they say, you know what? I I think I'm ready to, to really make this a singular department or to start backing out of being, uh, I want one less hat and being the chief everything officer. And, and maybe it's time to start looking at that, that next sales person or marketing person who can be a who instead of me knowing how. What would you tell them?

Kyle Mealy [00:38:17]:
I would say a very practical next step, and I would write down a couple of different. This exercise I'll do for four quadrants. Write your competition, write marketing, sales, and then your vision, and just give yourself a simple score. How's your competition doing in marketing and sales? One to 1010, being best, how you feel about your sales today? One to 1010 being your best marketing. And then how are you on track, off track toward your vision? And I bring the competition in because if you. I'm kind of stealing, spoiling this, but it will tell you what to do with this information so you can really turn it into action, is if you are really, you know, excited or well, it'll end up being annoyed by your competition. You feel like they're doing a better job than you. You need to look at your whole picture.

Kyle Mealy [00:39:10]:
You need to look at your. Your revenue and marketing sales strategy, because if you have more confidence that your competitor is going to win than yourself, you need to look at your leader team, whoever is in charge of that today, and that may be you. Like, you may need to hold that mirror up. And then usually those answers are inverts of each other. Usually go on ten and five, and then vision is the other way. Right. It's kind of the opposite quadrant here. You might not be worried about your competition.

Kyle Mealy [00:39:36]:
You might be feeling good about your marketing and sales, but you're stuck and you've known that for a long while. And that's what I found. Most of these leaders are who are thinking about, I keep trying marketing tactics and I failed at hiring these sales guys. Like, why? You might think you have good people or you might think you have a strategy, but if you're not getting to your vision, then you probably don't as well.

Kenny Lange [00:40:03]:
That's great insight. Take a snip of that, rewind it, play it back till it again, until it shows up like a tattoo. Kyle, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. If people wanted more of it, if they wanted to learn more about who you are, what you're doing, how you can help them, where would you send them?

Kyle Mealy [00:40:24]:
I would send them to the website for sure. Ready for the next level.com. kind of funny, kind of nailed that branding. So ready for the next level or hit me on LinkedIn. And then I've got, obviously I'll be talking about the book soon and giving away some advanced copies of it, potentially in first chapter.

Kenny Lange [00:40:49]:
Excellent. All right, we'll make sure to link those up in the show notes. So if anybody wants to go and check that out again, thank you so much. This has been really, really helpful. And for you out there listening somewhere in podcast land, which should be a country, if this was helpful to you, please, like subscribe, rate, review, give, give me feedback. I always want to make the show better. I make this show for you. I enjoyed it, but it's, it's for your benefit.

Kenny Lange [00:41:22]:
Um, and if you're someone who's really other centered and you want to help somebody else, um, sharing this out, liking it, getting it more visibility is a cheap, fast, easy way, um, to help somebody else find this show or find this particular episode, um, so that they can get the help that maybe they need to go to their next level. Look, it's just.

Kyle Mealy [00:41:47]:
As a guest, like, you asked really thoughtful questions and I appreciate the challenge in it. So hopefully that created real good value. And thank you.

Kenny Lange [00:41:58]:
Well, until next time, change the way you think. We'll change the way you leave. We'll see you.