How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Clayton Stenson [00:00:00]:
One of the implementers said something I thought was brilliant. He said, I don't think the integrator is more likely to identify it. I think the visionary feels it too, but I think the integrator is more likely to understand the downstream consequences of the issue in the relationship.

Kenny Lange [00:00:22]:
You welcome to the how leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Clayton Stenson, not Stevenson. He is an innovator in the business coaching space. His focus is on helping visionary business owners and their second in commands develop strong communication skills, have an understanding and an appreciation for one another, and be able to leverage each other's strengths. His targeted program works to improve the adoption, implementation and execution. There's a whole lot going on there of the entrepreneurial operating system or EOS. Welcome to the show Clayton.

Clayton Stenson [00:01:05]:
Thanks for having me, Kenny. Really appreciate it. Looking forward to this.

Kenny Lange [00:01:10]:
Me too. This is one listeners don't know. This is one of, I think, 37 conversations that we've had this week that were all scheduled. I don't know how it happened, but the Lord works in mysterious ways. So I'm excited to have, I think this is conversation number 35 and we still have half a day left, so it's going to be great. Clayton, tell us what is on your mind.

Clayton Stenson [00:01:39]:
Yeah, I've been doing a lot of reflecting these days about my past relationships with visionaries that I've worked with and just trying to figure out how to best support and help the second in command that's maybe struggling in that relationship. And a lot of what I'm thinking about is differences, right. And why we get so frustrated with people that are different from us and how to overcome that. And so I've been reading a know on conscious leaders know conflict resolution know, trying to understand Colby assessments and different types of assessments in a deeper way and how I can really help people to, like you say, change the way that they think about the situations that they're in. I've done a lot of the wrong things, a lot of the wrong ways at the start, especially with my first visionary. So yeah, just really trying to process what I was thinking and how I should have approached it differently and learning a lot from the clients that I'm supporting as well. And through that reflection, it's been really good season.

Kenny Lange [00:03:03]:
That's interesting. That's almost like a lifelong journey to start to understand those things in the context of your work with that visionary integrator, visionary operator duo. What have you seen be that current thinking, that prevailing wisdom that is not working for folks and is leading you on this journey to find tools, assessments, or new mental models to help reframe the relationship? What's common right now?

Clayton Stenson [00:03:42]:
Yeah, I'll approach it from both ways. I'll start with the visionary. I think quite often I think the visionary, especially in a small growing company that's never had an integrator operator before, I think the prevailing thinking is that I need someone like me. I want to hire people that are like me, and hiring someone that's not like me is frustrating. Right. And I'll give you an example. I remember my first visionary that I worked with. We were very successful.

Clayton Stenson [00:04:17]:
It went really well. And years later, after I wasn't working with him anymore, he reached out to me. He says, clayton, I've got a new integrator that I want to hire. Know, can you coach him? I'm like, yeah, sure, I can coach him. He's like, the only problem is I just don't think he's visionary enough. And I started laughing and I'm like, hey, what are you talking about? We didn't work well together because I was visionary like you. We worked together because I was the opposite and we had a high level of trust.

Clayton Stenson [00:04:53]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:04:53]:
So I think it's easy to fall into that trap of, yeah, it is easier in the short run to hire someone that's more like you, but in the long run, it's not going to work. I joke about companies that have two or three visionary types. That's like a three headed monster, right? You need someone different than you. If you want to get to the next level. You need somebody who's going to challenge you, who's going to care about your business, but have a different perspective. And you need a variety of those types of people at the table, at the leadership table, if everybody's the same on the leadership team, you're going to have problems.

Clayton Stenson [00:05:33]:
Right?

Clayton Stenson [00:05:34]:
So I think that from the visionary perspective, that's probably their biggest challenge. From the integrator perspective or operator perspective. I'll just tell you what my perspective was with my first visionary, was that I thought something was wrong with him, something actually wrong with him. I wouldn't have probably said that out loud, but underneath there was this unhealthy judgment.

Clayton Stenson [00:06:00]:
Right?

Kenny Lange [00:06:01]:
Interesting.

Clayton Stenson [00:06:03]:
And I think that happens when we don't understand people, when they're different from us, right. Is that you can fill in the gaps and rather than trying to understand him and appreciate him, I think there was this kind of underlying resentment, bitterness that was not helpful and healthy for the relationship, and it undermined trust. So that's some of the stuff that I really coach people on now is like, where's your heart at with that? With visionary, right. Are you accepting them for who they are? And are you really appreciating the gifts and abilities that they have? Or underneath, are you critical and judgmental? So on.

Kenny Lange [00:06:55]:
That's really good. And the funny part on the visionary is like, I need them to be more visionary. It's like, well, there's a reason that the role is not called visionary number two. Right?

Clayton Stenson [00:07:10]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:07:12]:
And I think you said something important that I hope the listeners hear, which is the visionary needs to see the operator. This has to come from them, but they need to see them as someone who cares deeply about the business but has a different perspective and that the different perspective does not equal, doesn't care or wants to take from. Right. I've seen that and I know that that can be really damaging. Right. Because then it does erode the trust that you mentioned. Is it fair to say that trust is great and necessary in all levels of leadership and in all levels of business or nonprofits or anything? We have books called business at the speed of trust or something goofy like that. But would you argue that the trust is more vital, more important and significant between that visionary and second in command than any other relationship in the organization?

Clayton Stenson [00:08:30]:
Yes, absolutely. I would say that that relationship sets the tone. It's a model for everybody else on how they should live and how they should operate in the company.

Clayton Stenson [00:08:43]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:08:43]:
So if there's dysfunction there or lack of trust, I always compare to a marriage. If mom and dad are fighting, the kids know. They can tell. Right. And it shakes. What would be the word? Like discomfort. Like they're knowing that everything's going to be okay.

Clayton Stenson [00:09:04]:
Right. If dad.

Clayton Stenson [00:09:04]:
Mom and dad are fighting, how do they know that everything's been okay? It's just so much uncertainty.

Clayton Stenson [00:09:10]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:09:11]:
And I think it's the same in a company. If the visionary and second commander are fighting, people can sense it and there's uncertainty there. They don't know where to stand. But if it's a healthy model, then they'll learn. I just believe that people learn how to live based on their leaders that are around them. Whether you like it or not, it's just reality. It's our responsibility to be healthy, to work on ourselves, to grow, and to have good relationship with our second commander, visionary, depending on the seat brand.

Kenny Lange [00:09:46]:
Got you. You bring up something that I don't hear many people talk about, which is the instability in the organization that can stem from the visionary integrator operator. Like not seeing each other in the best light or really believing the best about the other. What are some of the tangible sort of trickle down effects, that sort of instability or just having maybe a contentious relationship at that level? What at the other levels of the organization might we expect to see? Because I'm thinking there's somebody listening and they're seeing stuff around, but that doesn't feel right. Might feel dysfunctional and they're seeing the symptoms, but maybe they can't pinpoint the root cause and maybe it is coming from here. So can you paint the picture of what some of those symptoms might look like that are actually coming from the visionary and the second in command?

Clayton Stenson [00:10:52]:
I would say the first thing you might lose is in the l ten or what do you guys call it? Weekly sync?

Kenny Lange [00:11:00]:
Weekly sync.

Clayton Stenson [00:11:03]:
You'll lose open and honest. You'll lose that ability for people to just be real because that uncertainty will, you know that the issue between them will kill that.

Clayton Stenson [00:11:19]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:11:21]:
I'm reading about conscious leadership right now and I'm really liking it. It just talks about that. I don't remember the word that you use, but just how any lack of integrity in any relationship and integrity may sound like a weird word to use in that situation, but unresolved issues is a lack of integrity. We're not dealing with whatever's going on. So I would say that's the first thing that goes. I think as anxiety comes in, we're not at our best when we are distracted by relationship issues.

Clayton Stenson [00:11:59]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:11:59]:
So I would say that people will be less present. They're looking at how is this going to turn out? Is it going to be okay today? It's just a huge distraction, right. From being focused, task at hand. So, yeah, I don't know what else I would add there, but I would think that would be the biggest thing you'd notice. And the rest of the team won't know outside of the leadership team, I think the rest of the team won't know why.

Kenny Lange [00:12:35]:
Yeah.

Clayton Stenson [00:12:37]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:12:37]:
But they'll still sense it, right. When we're fully present. I always say that myself as a coach, when I'm in a coaching situation, I am most effective. When I'm not thinking about me at all, me is gone.

Clayton Stenson [00:12:56]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:12:56]:
If I'm coaching you, Kenny, it is all about you, Kenny. I'm not self, you know, I'm not having self doubt. I have to get out of that place and just be totally present. And people can't do that when there's relationship issues around them.

Kenny Lange [00:13:17]:
Yeah, it's sort of this distracting aneurysm almost. Have you seen this cause silos or territorialism? Because I know that when people feel like their job or the security of their job could be threatened. Like you said, open and honest in those leadership meetings starts to go. But have you seen it start to just erode like normal day to day open, honest communication to where people are withholding some information to make sure that they stay valuable as a way to steady themselves? Like, no matter what happens here, I'm proving my value, which it's a damaging belief, it's a false belief that that's going to work. But have you seen it do that? Because I know that that plagues a lot of people in, say, middle management and on down. You might start to see more of that.

Clayton Stenson [00:14:19]:
Yeah, I can't think of an example specifically because I'm usually engaged as a coach, so I don't necessarily see all the ins and outs of it, but I can definitely speak to if the integrator is new and the founder has stronger relationships, I could see that could easily happen where people are positioning and trying to stay on the good side of the person who's the longest standing. Or if there's ever like a merger, I'm dealing with a client right now is a merger, and the CEO of one company is the visionary. Now, the CEO of the other company that was acquired is the integrator now. And they're dealing with. That's tough, some of that stuff. And it looks like probably going to be coaching the integrator operator actually in this instance, and coaching her on how to navigate that, how to build relationships with the people she doesn't know. And it sounds like there's one person that may need to go. Unfortunately, that isn't really coachable within the leadership.

Clayton Stenson [00:15:34]:
That's causing a lot of problems. And this doesn't apply to the visionary integrator.

Clayton Stenson [00:15:38]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:15:38]:
It could apply to sales and ops leaders, or it's the same kind of concept, but the visionary integrator, I'd say, is more crucial. But any of these relationship issues can do the same.

Kenny Lange [00:15:50]:
It's also more visible. Right? Yeah. You see it? Feel the impact of it a little sooner. Actually, my question that came to my mind was, if there is this rift between a visionary and their second in command, where is the onus to repair the relationship? Right. As a foster parent and things like that, we get some training which, honest to God, it should just be like business and relationships training. Like, it's just really good stuff. But one of the patterns that my wife and I get taught is about rupture and repair, and rupture is not the end of the world. It's an opportunity to repair.

Kenny Lange [00:16:43]:
And in some cases, there's, like a strategic rupture that needs to happen so you can build the relationship back in a proper manner. Sort of like breaking a bone to set it correctly sort of thing. How are you coaching your client duos on where that starts? Because when you get to pretty strong willed, high achievers, driven individuals, they can say, like, well, I'm in the right. I've done this, and maybe I did the small thing, but it's on them to do this. It's my company versus, I'm trying to help you. Where do you get started on something like that?

Clayton Stenson [00:17:28]:
Yeah, it's a really good question, and it's a common issue. Recently, I got referred to a visionary integrator, and I met with the implementer and just said, hey, are they both open to coaching? And he said, no. Okay, well, pretty hard to do what I call marriage counseling if one person won't come to the table. Right. I'll just tell a quick story back to the marriage example, because I think there's so many overlaps. I was listening to a podcast the other day with my wife, and he was talking about this very thing, like, how you can get into this kind of cycle of battle, right? How do you break out of it? And he said that somebody needs to humble themselves. Somebody needs to stop and say, hey, you know what? I have a part in this. I'm sorry I did this, and I shouldn't have done this or whatever, right? And the question in the podcast was, who should do that? Like, who should be the one to humble themselves? And he asked the crowd and one of the people, the husband should lead, right? He should do that, right? And someone else said, the woman.

Clayton Stenson [00:18:39]:
And he said, no, the one that's more mature.

Kenny Lange [00:18:42]:
Wow.

Clayton Stenson [00:18:43]:
And I was like, whoa.

Clayton Stenson [00:18:45]:
Right?

Clayton Stenson [00:18:46]:
And it was interesting because it's like.

Kenny Lange [00:18:47]:
Now it's a competition.

Clayton Stenson [00:18:48]:
I want to be the one that's more mature.

Clayton Stenson [00:18:51]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:18:51]:
I want to be the one that's going to set the example. And I don't know, that just was a really good perspective. You shouldn't use that as a prideful thing.

Clayton Stenson [00:19:01]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:19:03]:
But, yeah, somebody just needs to own it. Somebody needs to be like, you know what? This isn't working. It's not good for our company. We need help. Usually I think you need somebody external, right, to help you see things for what they are. And I'll give you an example. I had a client this summer who I was coaching him, just the integrator. And I think it was like, week two.

Clayton Stenson [00:19:30]:
He's like, clean my visionary. He's driving me nuts. And I said, yeah, tell me about it. And he told me about it a bit. And I coached him a little bit and just said, you know what? You can't change him, right? But you can change your approach. And I said, is there any approach that you're taking with him that you think you could change or improve? And he's like, I use my intellect to attack when I don't get what I want. And I'm like, okay, you need to stop that. And so he actually went to his visionary that week, and he apologized.

Clayton Stenson [00:20:06]:
He said, hey, you know what? I use this to attack you, and it's not fair, and I need to stop. And I'm sorry. I'm going to work on that. And the visionary was, like, shocked and then owned. I don't know about you, but with my wife, if I humble myself and apologize for something that I did, like, truly apologize, not like a story, and then justify it after. Right. Truly own it, usually almost every time, she will then apologize, too, and own her part in it, right? And I think that's where this starts. And, yeah, another thing I'll just share, which is powerful.

Clayton Stenson [00:20:50]:
I had Don Tinney, the original us integrator, on one of my webinars recently. Fantastic guy, a few times. And he said, the thing I appreciated most about Gino Wickman is if there was ever an issue from one of our conversations that he didn't feel like was resolved when he was driving home, he would call me and he'd say, don, I just don't feel peace about that interaction. Can we talk about it and resolve it? And he said, we never let anything like that last. We dealt right away.

Kenny Lange [00:21:27]:
That's incredible. But that's not the typical right. If it was, you and I probably would not have jobs or businesses. That's fantastic. And if your wife wants to call my wife about the whole, like, admitting to her fault thing, like, maybe we could. My wife's like, yeah, exactly. You were wrong. She's fantastic.

Kenny Lange [00:21:57]:
And I'd be a lot more terrified if I thought she would ever listen to any of my podcasts. We're honest here on the how leaders think podcast. We're just bringing the heat unfiltered, unvarnished. I don't know how many of you are varnishing the truth? But it's unvarnished. Rabbit. I have these facilitation animals. I should probably send you a box of these. Clayton, you'd enjoy them, but it's these little animals, like an elephant.

Kenny Lange [00:22:38]:
Like, let's talk about the elephant in the room. There's one that's a squirrel. I think I need just a box of squirrels.

Clayton Stenson [00:22:43]:
You need one on your neck on a chain or something.

Kenny Lange [00:22:46]:
Yeah, that's going to be. I want to put it right next. Like, I have my faith and then my personality side by side. There's so much to unpack here. We could probably do an entire series, and maybe that should be a concept for us to pursue in conversation, 38 or 39, but I love that the concept that that guy put forward is whoever is more mature. And one of the things that comes to mind, actually a couple of them that are tools that I've been pursuing and testing out and seeing some good early results. Things like the empowerment dynamic, where you talk about the drama triangle and are we focused on the problem or are we focused on the outcome? So I've done part of what I offer, in addition to the system and soul stuff is similar to you in that I'll end up coaching, maybe a visionary operator duo, especially if they're new. That can be a really new concept.

Kenny Lange [00:23:54]:
Even in eos, companies that are fresh into that, they're like, what's this integrator thing, and how does it work? And just saying, hey, what's the outcome you both want? Let's focus on that. Oh, okay. If that's what we want, we're actually in far more unity than it appears. But because we got sideways with each other, neither one of us owned it. We now have this narrative, this story that we're replaying in our head. Clayton's just. He's just stuck in his ways. He doesn't see the value.

Kenny Lange [00:24:32]:
He just wants to do what he wants to do, like, whatever it may be. And instead of pausing, apologizing if you own your part, but also, well, what do we actually have? A shared outcome? Are we trying to get to the same destination? And to your point earlier, just having a different perspective? Are we both just super passionate about this organization and its success? And we've chosen to hold our opinions with a closed hand instead of an open hand. So things like that, things like the enneagram, which I think are great for just like deep interpersonal, there's some team elements that can apply there, but just for some deep interpersonal so I do encourage people. Find something that number one can help you work on yourself. So you heard Clayton say his advice a lot of times is, well, we can't change that other person, but we can change ourselves. And I'm curious with that because sometimes that can come with some feelings of hopelessness. Right. Like marriage counseling and only one spouse is coming to the meeting sort of thing.

Kenny Lange [00:25:43]:
But I don't think I heard you say that. It's not the maximum impact, but it's not ineffective and not worthwhile. Is that accurate?

Clayton Stenson [00:25:56]:
Yeah.

Clayton Stenson [00:25:56]:
No, it still can have a big impact.

Clayton Stenson [00:25:59]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:26:00]:
Think about it. If you're frustrated with your wife or husband and you've told them, I wish you would not do this anymore, and then one day they stop, one day they change because they started looking in the mirror and recognizing. Then all of a sudden you're like, what's going on? What's going on with you?

Clayton Stenson [00:26:25]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:26:25]:
So I think there can be a huge impact for that. And I'll just go back to my client this summer. I told him I was coaching him on how to change his approach to his relationship. And a couple of weeks after that, the visionary called me, and he's like, clayton, whatever you're doing with know is working. Can you coach us together because our relationship is better than it? That I didn't talk to him at all, but he could see that something was changing in his integrator. So then I coached them together for seven weeks. And, yeah, it's really had a big impact. Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:27:09]:
And it's pretty common. I think this is my integrator bias, and I have to be careful that I don't go there. I'm more naturally an integrator. So in my coaching, I have to make sure that I stay unbiased. But I remember at one point I was like, it seems like the integrator is always the one that identifies the problem between them and is always like, there's just something not right in my relationship. I wish it was better. I don't know what to do about it. I hear integrators complaining a lot, and I was talking to some implementers about it, and I said, do you think the integrator is more likely to identify this as an issue or to see that it's an issue? One of the implementers said something I thought was brilliant.

Clayton Stenson [00:27:51]:
He said, I don't think the integrator is more likely to identify it. I think the visionary feels it, too, but I think the integrator is more likely to understand the downstream consequences of the issue in the relationship.

Clayton Stenson [00:28:07]:
Wow. Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:28:08]:
And I was like, that's interesting, right? Because integrators are system focused logic process. They're thinking like down the line, if we don't get this fixed, it's going to be an issue. Whereas I think the visionary sometimes is just too busy. They don't think about the implication of things.

Clayton Stenson [00:28:27]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:28:27]:
They're just more going for it and trying to figure things out on the fly. And so I find that a lot of integrators come to me for help and their visionary maybe doesn't recognize that there's, I guess, not the urgency of it.

Clayton Stenson [00:28:44]:
Right.

Kenny Lange [00:28:45]:
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense because they're system minded. They know, like you said, the implication of, if this cog over here is malfunctioning a little bit, how does that input this widget down here? And at a certain scale, it's by design that the visionary isn't a part of all the cogs and widgets and the intricate, detailed pieces. It's usually not their skill set, not their gifting. Right. Or working genius, what have you. Yeah, I would say because sometimes, just because I have been and still am a second in command for my church. So I've been one in an agency after I sold mine. But I've been the visionary too.

Kenny Lange [00:29:35]:
So like you, I try to remain neutral. It's like I see both sides. Let me help you blend this together. But I think some of that comes from there is a power dynamic at play in that the visionary usually doesn't have somebody to answer to. Now you may end up with a board or something like that, but especially if they're the founder, it looks different than when you have like a second 3rd, 4th generation CEO. Right?

Clayton Stenson [00:30:08]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:30:10]:
And you see them where they say, well, we'll just figure it out as we go. We'll build the ship while we're sailing it or. Well, so long as it doesn't stop me from doing what it is I want to do and I think we should be doing. We'll hire other people like they're not replaceable. For them, there is no plan b. And I think that that can become a blindness, in my opinion. Definitely to, well, these other people don't have an equity stake in this venture. Therefore they can develop a plan b.

Kenny Lange [00:30:46]:
If you act like a jack wagon for long enough. Now, sometimes second in commands act like jack wagons too. I'm not here to vilify visionaries and give a halo effect to integrators. It takes two to tango, as some would say, I prefer more of a ballroom dancing, but that's whatever we've been watching Dancing with the Stars, my daughter's really into it. So it's top of mind. But the part that I think I'd be curious to hear your take and your experience on is what does it look like working with a visionary between being a founder visionary and that second, 3rd, fourth, it doesn't necessarily have to be like a family member that took over. But how is the flavor of the interaction different there? And what could you maybe advise a listener, a leader to be aware of so that they can approach it with maybe a more nuanced perspective?

Clayton Stenson [00:32:02]:
That's a good question. I know how one of the things you said was they don't report to anybody. Like they're not accountable to anybody. Well, in my opinion, if you want to have a good company, a successful company, I think that there has to be a level of humility in the visionary to allow the integrators or operator.

Kenny Lange [00:32:34]:
To hold you accountable 100%. Yeah.

Clayton Stenson [00:32:37]:
And if you are not willing to do that, you're never going to have a good relationship.

Clayton Stenson [00:32:47]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:32:47]:
Because the integrator operator is going to be frustrated.

Clayton Stenson [00:32:51]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:32:52]:
Because you're not allowing them to speak into your life. And for example, I have a client right now who the visionary missed the l ten, two weeks in a row. And he told me it sucks when he's not there. And I said, well, you need to talk to him. Right. Put it on the issues list. Like right now. Put it on your issues list.

Clayton Stenson [00:33:11]:
Same page meeting, l ten attendance. And you need to talk to them.

Clayton Stenson [00:33:15]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:33:16]:
Because if you need them there, you need to say something about it. Right. And he did. And that visionary is awesome. He's a friend of mine and he responded well. And he's like, yeah, sorry. Yeah, I know, you're right. I need to be there.

Clayton Stenson [00:33:29]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:33:29]:
It's its most important meeting for my team each week and I need you to. You need that, right. The visionary needs that voice of reason type person in their life, particularly if they don't have a coach. I think every visionary should have a coach of some kind that's speaking life into you and challenging you and not just allowing you to go down the rabbit trail or whatever direction you want to go. We all should have a coach.

Kenny Lange [00:34:01]:
I agree. And everybody should just go to the unityguide.com and you can make that happen.

Clayton Stenson [00:34:08]:
Yeah.

Clayton Stenson [00:34:08]:
And I don't mean it in that way.

Kenny Lange [00:34:12]:
No, I agree. The three things I have come to see, and I'm actually building a sermon or a message for my foster family camp next week around this concept. But everybody, every successful leader that he's one of the co founders of System and soul, Chris White. I know a lot of people in the Eos community know him, but he talks about, you need a know some guiding principles. You need a peer group so people sort of travelers for the journey that can hold you accountable and help you and encourage you, and then you need a coach. And he says, I've never met. He's worked with billion dollar companies and everything down to million dollar. He's helped so many people, and he says, every really successful person I've seen and leader has those three things.

Kenny Lange [00:35:08]:
So I think you're 100% spot on. Whether they get you, they get me, they get somebody else, but it doesn't matter. You can't really argue with everybody, right? People with coaches versus people without what their success and their growth rate is. Because wouldn't you say it accelerates their ability to realize their potential?

Clayton Stenson [00:35:30]:
Because we all have blind spots.

Kenny Lange [00:35:32]:
Oh, for sure.

Clayton Stenson [00:35:33]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:35:34]:
And here's the biggest advice for visionaries. The danger is everyone might be intimidated by you. Like, you may not feel like you're intimidating, but everyone most likely in your organization is intimidated by you. And they will stepping on my toes. They will not challenge you. Most likely. Not all the time. Like, if you have people in your organization that will challenge you, you don't realize how blessed you are.

Clayton Stenson [00:36:06]:
But I've experienced so many organizations where the visionary will never get challenged.

Clayton Stenson [00:36:10]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:36:11]:
And somebody that's employed by you might never challenge you, but your coach will. We've all got blind spots. I look back at my first engagement with a visionary. Before I even knew about eos, I had so many blind spots. Now I know. Now I see it. It's like, oh, man, if I would have approached that that way, if I would have this, if I would have that, I can see it now because I see it in my clients now, right. It's like, oh, I got to look in the mirror on that, right.

Kenny Lange [00:36:45]:
Something that we don't have time to delve into but would recommend for people is looking at the four stages of psychological safety, because they all build upon each other. Inclusion learning contributor safety. The final one is challenger safety. In that model, psychological safety is defined as a culture of rewarded vulnerability. And I think challenging the senior most authority in the organization is more of an act of vulnerability than defiance or disrespect or anything, but you really open yourself up and do you think that's predominantly why these senior, most leaders are not being challenged, even when it's glaringly obvious that we're missing something or they are.

Clayton Stenson [00:37:44]:
Yeah.

Clayton Stenson [00:37:44]:
And I would say most visionaries will say that I wish people would challenge me more, but then, like you said.

Kenny Lange [00:37:53]:
They'Ll punch them in the face when.

Clayton Stenson [00:37:55]:
They, when they're challenged. They don't receive it well.

Clayton Stenson [00:37:58]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:37:59]:
And it's like, well, you can't have it both ways. Right.

Kenny Lange [00:38:04]:
I heard a great quote. I've been consuming a lot of Alex Hormozi's content, you know, podcasts and different things like that. But he said something on two consecutive podcasts this week that I listened to and is especially for business owners, business leaders, you can't have both control and freedom at the same time. That pegged me between the eyes, especially as I think about not just for myself but the people I work with, is if you're a leader, if you want, I want more people to challenge me and so that you can start to relinquish control of different pieces and get the freedom you want. But I think leaders need to make that choice between control and freedom. And if you want control, and that's the place you act from, I don't think you're going to get very many people who want to or are inclined to challenge you because there's not a benefit to them on the other side.

Clayton Stenson [00:39:14]:
Yeah. If you want control, just stay small because that's the only way you can have control.

Clayton Stenson [00:39:20]:
Right.

Clayton Stenson [00:39:20]:
Is if you have less people to be around. Yeah, but if you want to be.

Kenny Lange [00:39:24]:
The chief everything officer.

Clayton Stenson [00:39:26]:
Yeah, but you're going to have five staff, probably.

Kenny Lange [00:39:30]:
Yeah. And massive headaches and. Yeah, there's a whole host of things. Well, we have discussed a great many things. I love all these things because obviously we're in similar businesses with some similar backgrounds for a reason. So I'm sure that we could have a Joe Rogan esque three hour conversation, but I think people would tune out probably after the second hour. But if somebody was wanting to take some initial steps towards the things we talked about, especially those in that visionary second in command relationship to just gain awareness, to improve the relationship, improve themselves, what are some free or nearly free steps that they could take in 24 hours?

Clayton Stenson [00:40:22]:
Yeah, I just launched a YouTube channel here about four weeks ago, which will link up. Kenny is going to be on it shortly. But that's one way. It's just interviewing experts like Kenny about things they're passionate about that are relevant for companies trying to run on a business operating system.

Kenny Lange [00:40:44]:
Well done. Well done.

Clayton Stenson [00:40:46]:
Such as system and soul and then on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. It's probably the best way to reach out to me. Or you can check out my website. There's a free consultation book button on there. You can just book a call and we'll have a chat and see if I can help.

Kenny Lange [00:41:03]:
Absolutely. Well, Clayton, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm confident this will not be the last time, if history and our calendars are any indication. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, sharing your time. Thank you to everybody who's a listener. I do want to encourage you to, if you like this, give us a five star review. Subscribe. Smash that subscribe button.

Kenny Lange [00:41:29]:
I don't know. I heard somebody say that once and it sounded weird and I thought I'd try it out. But I appreciate you more than you know. And remember, until next time, change how you think you'll change how you lead.

Clayton Stenson [00:41:41]:
We'll see.