How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

HLT Cindee Williams Full Interview
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Cindee Wiliams: [00:00:00] I don't feel like we've been created to sit at home on the couch and just go, this is who I am.

Go out and do something with that. That is now becomes our responsibility to go out and find out who we are supposed to serve. And that could be the clients in our business, that could be our community, that could be the people within our family, within our church, whatever it is. Whom do you serve? It's not just for us to sit back and, and go, these are my strengths.

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Kenny Lange: Welcome to the How Leaders Think Podcast, a show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Cindy Williams. She's the founder of Lead My Life, great alliteration from a rusty old pressure washer found in a barn launch.

Cindy's and her husband's career into a decades long entrepreneurial. Journey, which I mean, I'm sure there's a great story there that everybody [00:01:00] would love to hear. And it's one that's built on both grit and grace, which I love Cindy helps midlife women and legacy entrepreneurs build businesses that bless them back by rediscovering who they are, whom they serve, and why their work matters, so that they can lead, speak, and scale with integrity and impact.

Welcome to the show, Cindy.

Cindee Wiliams: Thank you so much, Kenny. I'm so excited for this conversation. Been thinking about it, so thank you for having me today.

Kenny Lange: Absolutely. I, I'm excited about this too. So we had a great in intro call. So I, I expect just the part two to, to build on top of that. But tell me, Cindy, today, what is on your mind?

Cindee Wiliams: Well, I, I, I had full disclosure. I just came off of a three day birthday weekend where we did nothing but sit on the beach. So I, you're like my first real conversation in like three or four [00:02:00] days. So this is so exciting. So what's on my mind? What, what's on my mind? What I've really been concentrating on really for the last month in April has been I identity, in particular our business identity.

And that who are we, who are we in the marketplace? And how much that question we're able to answer that question it changes everything for us. And so that, that's really, I'd love to dive into business identity and who are we and, and that whole ball of wax.

Kenny Lange: There, there's a ton there. And I've actually, I've been having some of those same conversations. You and I had a bit of that conversation about my, my coaching practice. But I've had some similar ones with other coaches, so that, that, that topic seems to be bubbling up in, in a lot of different areas.

I'm know maybe the Lord's trying to tell me something. But he usually is, it's just a question of whether or not I'm listening. Right.

Cindee Wiliams: Right.

Kenny Lange: but tell me anytime somebody, [00:03:00] a, a smart person such as yourself tells me, I'm thinking about this, I'm noticing this, this is something worth saying to me, usually points out that. That's not happening naturally for the majority of people. 'cause if it was, and it's like, well, we don't really need to talk about that. Everybody's already kind of like floating into the right thing anyways. So what are you seeing or what's the current thinking, prevailing wisdom that makes thinking about and digging into business identity, leadership identity, those sorts of things that you mentioned. A necessary conversation in, in the marketplace today.

Cindee Wiliams: Right. I, I would say the number one word that comes to mind is clarity. There, there is such, such a lack of clarity and I, I do a lot of going out. My, my strength zone is just connecting with people and having conversations. And so when I go out, when I go to a networking event, when I talk with people, we ask the [00:04:00] question, but I really don't like this question, but we all ask it, what do you do?

What do you do? What do you do? Right? And so we're always leading with our what?

Kenny Lange: Hmm.

Cindee Wiliams: And we're leading with a transaction instead of leading with transformation. And it just, it, you take the mic and every single time I, I see somebody take the mic and give their little 32nd spiel, I'll see them a week later and that spiel is something else.

It's like the words change and I talk to the women and I talk to business owners and they're like, I just sat in the car for, 30 minutes before I came in, trying to think of what I was going to say. And, and there's just no clarity on who they are. And they, so they lead with just selling with their whats?

And the thing is, we don't buy whats.

Kenny Lange: Mm-hmm.

Cindee Wiliams: We buy who you are first. We wanna know who you are first. And, and I told this story to my, my coaching group last week. It's like if I had two [00:05:00] dozens of eggs sitting in front of me and I, I buy the dozen eggs that tell me the story of Betty the hen. I do there, have you seen those?

The eggs that, that gives the hen of the month, I wanna know who you are, I wanna know your story. I wanna connect with you on a personal level before I buy what you have for me. And so that, it's really been on my, my mind lately, and that's what I'm really working with, with my entrepreneurs that I work with is, who are you first?

And let's get that down.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. I I love that. And I've, I've been at a bunch of networking events and I, I, I will, I will admit I have been guilty of, of, you may have seen me at one event next week, I'm trying out something new now. Some of that I think just has to come down to, at the very beginning, it it's sort of like, trying on outfits, right?

You're

Cindee Wiliams: Yes.

Kenny Lange: one fits right. And do I like, okay, well it fits right, but do I like this color? And there's some early like, discovery, but it, it is difficult. It is, it isn't easy [00:06:00] to get clarity on that particular issue. A coach, a friend of mine, says a lot in his sessions. He talks about how difficult it is to try to read the label from inside the jar.

I. Is one reason why when we're trying to figure out like who are we, what are our ingredients and percentages and like, well it's hard to do that when you're inside the jar. So I'm curious what obscures so much of the clarity. Why is this a difficult thing? 'cause you would think entrepreneurs, right? The the people group you deal with and I deal with. These are, these are self-starters. They are intuitive, they are go-getters. They are learners, typically lifelong learners. So they've got tons of information and they're, they're okay with uncertainty. They're okay with the lack of clarity. 'cause if they weren't, they probably would've never started a business.

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: or if they'd had tremendous clarity and understood, Hey, I got an 80% chance of totally falling flat on my face in the first [00:07:00] three years. Why should I do this? so what is it then, especially for this group of, of these, these high achievers, high performers, these entrepreneurs, these risk takers? is getting clarity around who they are and by extension, who their business is in the marketplace is so difficult?

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah, I, I think number one, I think you just just to hone in on, there's a difference between clarity and risk. So as an entrepreneur, you said, we, we dive forward and yeah, we have uncertainty so that, that's more risk, like our risk tolerance. But clarity is, I, I think what's so difficult to achieve in our day and age is because of all the outside noise.

Every day we're having social media and what we read and what we hear on the news and everything is defining who we are supposed to be. And so instead of letting our insides dictate who we are, we're going, oh, I should be this way, and I, they need [00:08:00] this. And it is all this external noise coming at us.

All the shiny objects. It, it doesn't, I don't care what industry you're in, because we've been business owners in three different industries. So it all, there's always shiny objects telling us who we should be, what we need, what we need to buy, what courses we need to take all of it. And in order to focus, I.

Follow that one course until successful. We need to put the blinders on, really know what our strengths are and move forward in that strengths so that we can be successful.

Kenny Lange: Mm-hmm. Why do you think, and apart from you just might have a, a natural tendency to go after shiny objects but makes us think tho those courses recommendations, the gurus, the books, the, the webinars, the conferences. So like all, all these different ideas and tactics and and whatnot, what makes them so appealing and does a lack of [00:09:00] understanding who you are. Play into that

Cindee Wiliams: Right. I think.

Kenny Lange: that, hoping someone else maybe will tell you who you are, or is it, or do you think it's something else?

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah, I think it's the external pressure, oh, if I take that course, then I'm gonna get clarity on how I need to move forward. If I, if I take that, and I'm all about learning. I, I'm constantly learning and taking courses, but I have a very strong filter about where I want to direct my learning. What's gonna move me forward?

What, what is my, my goals right now? What are my milestones that I wanna reach? This year it's more about speaking and, and just being able to gain exposure. So everything that I'm learning this year is through that filter. Everything else that comes at me, I'm like, you know what? That's a good thing, but it's not the best thing for me right now.

So having that clarity on really who I am, I know my strength style, I, I use the DISC assessment. I'm a disc consultant. So that's one way that we can really hone in on what our [00:10:00] strengths are. And then having, I, I call 'em milestones and not goals. 'cause I, I, I think like a runner, I'm a runner, so, goals, it's, it's like once you hit a goal, it's like you, you kind of get depressed.

You're like, okay, what's next? But when you're a runner, you hit that milestone, you celebrate, and then you're onto the next. So it's continuous but not, not follow when, when you know who you are. I'm a d on the disc scale, so I am a, a driver more dominant, more assertive and an I person. So I love people.

I'm a di I know that about myself. So now when I go out, I have that lens on and it helps me know what opportunities to search for that are gonna be within my strength zone.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. So I, I'm glad you, you brought up goals slash milestone in the context of what we're saying, because I was curious from, from your experience, conversations point of view. Is it, is it you need to know who you are do I need to [00:11:00] know where I'm heading? Which is, which plays a bigger role? Or are those two somehow intertwined?

I have my own opinions on this, so I'm trying not to if, if we were in a court of law, I'm trying not to get objection leading the witness. But how, how do you orient those? Because I know tons of people who have goals, milestones, things that they want to reach, achieve on, on the way to something else. but they may not have clarity on who they are. And likewise, I know some people who feel very clear on who they are, but they're like a parked car. Like, I'm, I don't know where you're going.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah, there's no growth.

Kenny Lange: Yeah. How do you distinguish between those two and how do they mix and mingle with one another towards what, what you're, you're seeing?

Cindee Wiliams: Well, first I, I just wanna touch on the, the, the five, our five core human needs, so first we, we have that layer of security of. Who and whom do I put my trust? Where do I put my trust? And that, [00:12:00] that's foundational to everything that we do is like we have to have trust in something.

And me, my, my faith is in God that that's my very core foundation. And next comes that identity piece. It's like once we have trust, once we feel comfortable in the relationships and the people that we have around us, then we can work on that identity piece. And that's the who, who you are and what in the, and the next becomes belonging.

Okay, where, where do I fit in? Where, where am I, where am I needed? And then comes that whole purpose piece. And then comes the, what, what do I need to learn? What, what am I competent in? What am my skills? So I, I think there's a real progression in that. So once we establish the trust, we know who you are.

I always teach, go out and find whom you serve,

Kenny Lange: Mm-hmm.

Cindee Wiliams: whom you, whom you serve, who are your ideal clients. And I, I do a whole AI workup around that. And then comes the purpose piece. The why, why does my work matter? Why, why am I doing [00:13:00] this? And you really have to have that identity piece put into place first. I feel, in order to know where you're going, like, I don't know what value I bring to the world in order to have a purpose until I figure that identity piece out, how am I gonna sit down with somebody and go, what value can I bring to the table if I, if I haven't done that work?

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. So you, you would, in the way that you work with people, it sounds like you help them understand that identity piece. And then from that place we can look at milestones, goals, achievements,

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: their preferred terminology is. But, and some of that's it also sounds like you're saying of get out, get moving.

Cindee Wiliams: Yes.

Kenny Lange: it's through that, that activity through the those actions. You will start to discover like, who do you really serve? And then that's not just for, and I would say, I would suggest that's not just for entrepreneurs. You could be an employee in an organization. You it could be a nonprofit. Like a lot of times [00:14:00] people think, oh, that's just a senior leadership team, or, or an entrepreneur thing.

Like, no, like you may be. feel like you're supposed to be serving people inside of your organization and equipping them and unleashing stuff in them. So, so starting to figure those pieces out and just getting out and interacting. And so it sounds like you're, you're coaching people on interact and then use those relationships, those conversations. data that you can then interpret and go, oh, 'cause, 'cause the market tells you what value you bring. You don't get to dictate that. Right. Am, am, am I on the right track?

Cindee Wiliams: You, you are. And I, I love the go out piece. I I, I love that you brought that up because that, that's totally my jam right there. I, I just feel, you talked about the person who really feels like they have their identity figured out, but then they're sitting at home on the couch. It's I, I don't feel like we've been created to sit at home on the couch and just go, this is who I am.

Go out and do something with [00:15:00] that. That is now becomes our responsibility to go out and find out who we are supposed to serve. And that could be the clients in our business, that could be our community, that could be the people within our family, within our church, whatever it is. Whom do you serve? It's not just for us to sit back and, and go, these are my strengths.

Kenny Lange: Right. NI want you to talk to the, the leader that and, and I've been this person, so I say this with zero judgment. Okay. Maybe a little judgment. But mostly at me. You get a lot of high achievers. They're very results oriented.

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: It's there. There's an objective here.

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: we're gonna meet that objective.

We're gonna hit that target. We're

Cindee Wiliams: Mm.

Kenny Lange: milestone and go to the next one. We're gonna hit a hundred thousand dollars in revenue, and then we're gonna hit a million, then five, then 10, then whatever. Why, do I need to know any of this stuff if I just really know how to, I know my product, I know my service. [00:16:00] know my target market that I'm selling to, right? why do I really need to know who I am and, and why do I need to understand the value beyond what pain I'm solving and people are willing to spend money to solve?

Cindee Wiliams: I love that. I, I would say my, my tagline is building businesses that bless you back. I. I don't believe that we produce income just for income. We can, but do you want, do you wanna just live your life or, or do you want to live a fulfilling life? I call like, my acronym for life is just living in full excitement.

And, and that is not just producing income. I'm a d I'm a driver. I'm not person who needs results. Like if I'm not getting results, if I'm not hitting my targets. It's really hard on me, but I've also recognized within myself that I need to take a week off at the end of each quarter. To that, to really renew.

And, and I have to know how I, [00:17:00] I don't want to naturally do that, but that's the only way I can recharge my batteries. That's the only way that my husband and I, it's just helped our marriage incredibly, and in the relationships that we have. And so it's not just about hitting targets. And when we have that, that d strong personality, which is.

Task oriented and people, and action. It's task and action forward. That's a d We have to go, oh, you know what, how do I add relationships into that? How do I come full picture in my, in my life? And, and not just. Producing income, but have fulfilling relationships. Know how to have fun, know, just the, the full picture.

And, and it's important. And no matter if you're, if you're an S and you just crave that slow, steady, you're, you're the employee for 30 years. You're the backbone of every everything. You need to go out and, and have fun. You need to know how to [00:18:00] set some boundaries. You need to know how to be a little bit more assertive.

And so it's just, it's full picture no matter what personality style you are.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Yeah. What, so, one, I, I would agree, like understanding more and more of those things as, as you and I have discussed, just because we, we have a, we're faith centered individuals in, in the marketplace like that becomes a grounding factor. And that that's not everybody, other people have, follow some spirituality or none at all. But I do think that there is a, a human element of just better under understanding myself and those around me that I care about at a minimum, right?

Cindee Wiliams: Right.

Kenny Lange: don't need to understand and care about everybody. at least a smaller circle is if somebody is there an age A life milestone where thinking about legacy, thinking about a life that blesses you back and all those things as opposed to just, I'm getting out.

I wanna [00:19:00] perform, I want to be well compensated, or recognized or rewarded. Is there, is there a almost like lifecycle stages

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: this identity discovery that you advocate for?

Cindee Wiliams: I, I would say for, for me, in 2018, I turned 50 years old. We had just dropped our daughter off at college, right? And so for me it was opening the front door of the house walking in, and it's quiet, right? And then you realize, holy heck, I. I've got a lot less road in front of me than I do behind me. And you start thinking about life in a totally different way.

And for, that's when it really hit me. It's like, how do I not just produce income and results and all this? How do I make an impact? How, how do I, I don't wanna just leave an impression like butt prints in the sand, right? That just wash away. I just don't wanna sit here on the sidelines. I wanna do something with my life and I, I want it to matter.

I [00:20:00] think that hits at different times for different people, but I know for me it was when I turned 50 years old and I was like, Hmm, this, this needs to matter. What I do now needs to matter.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. And. then

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: like it, let's go earlier than when that happened. 'Cause you, like you said, and, and what I read in your bio, like, you, you, you and your husband been entrepreneurs for a while

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: in, now you're in three, three different in, there we go. Yeah. From from pressure washing to to coaching, which nobody's like, oh yeah, I could see how you make that leap.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: Just natural. Everybody does that. But what is it like before then, like, could, could someone have persuaded you that building a, a, a business that blesses you back? Was a worthwhile endeavor or would it have taken some talking into, or did it really just take like that opening the [00:21:00] front door and it's, and it's quiet milestone that those life events happened to all of us. It could be, moving off to college. It could be a death in the family, marriage, new child whatever it, you may have that, those things change us.

Outside of that, could you have been talked into it being that you are such a high D and I say this as someone who is, I'm like in the furthest whatever quadrant.

Cindee Wiliams: Stratosphere.

Kenny Lange: I'm not allowed to even be like on the page, I'm somewhere out in the bleeds and I got cut off in the report. D so I say that as someone like that. If we're talking to those sort of people like. Could you have been talked into this way of thinking then? Or did it have to be a major milestone event to really change you from the inside out? 'cause that's what it sounds like.

Cindee Wiliams: Right. I, I think I would not have understood that language when we were in our twenties. Even when we were in our thirties, I, I don't think, and I chose that language very carefully because [00:22:00] there is a, we've been entrepreneurs now for over three decades, which sounds. Really makes me feel horribly old.

But we, we did, in 1991, we found this pressure washer in the garage and we needed extra income. I was teaching, my husband was a helicopter instructor and so we just started pressure washing in the evenings, car washes. We worked hard, really hard. And then that turned into this huge janitorial company that we sold in 2023.

But the grind of entrepreneurship, of business ownership, of like, okay, we may go on vacations, but that phone is always on us. We would hike mountain peaks just to get to 12,000 foot level. So we would have cell phone reception to talk to our clients, and to find out the latest troubles. Our, our kids, they would know that if they wanted to talk to their friends, they had to climb a mountain peak to get there.

Yeah. It's knowing that grind, and I don't even know another word to describe it. If you, if you've been in business ownership a long time, you know [00:23:00] that when the business starts to own you and you don't own a business, and when you see that happening to you, COVID was a huge. Eyeopener for a lot of people with that because it, it was such a difficult time.

Then you start understanding the language. How, how can I truly own a business? How can I get out of this and become a passive investor? How can I, how can this business bless me back so I can make a, for me, it's a kingdom impact. I wanna impact the kingdom of God with, with the, with our work.

Just have that high intensity. But yeah, I, I, I think you, you may not start out like that in your twenties. I think it has to be realized.

Kenny Lange: yeah, it's, it's it's. What hard won wisdom,

Cindee Wiliams: Yes.

Kenny Lange: since we're, this is gonna be the podcast episode for the, the most amount of alliteration which I love. It's, it's fun. So within that I, I'm trying to think of how to, how to phrase [00:24:00] this question. You, you're working, you're working, and I want to get into the, the grind part. And help relate back this even setting aside for a second, the, the build something that blesses you back, but understanding the, the identity piece that you

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: at the beginning, it is a grind. And, and I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs about that just because I'm like, I think I, I think I'm just too dumb to quit. Has been it's a secret of my success. If anything I jokingly call it being the buffalo, right? Because

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: like three animal responses to a storm. They run for higher ground, get hit by the storm anyway. They just sit there and they're like, whatever. They take it and the buffalo turns and faces the storm and runs right through

Cindee Wiliams: Right.

Kenny Lange: So the way out is through. So there is that, that grind in entrepreneurs. But there's, there's a lot of people who are being knocked out by that grind, that it's a, sometimes it's a sobering reality. For some, [00:25:00] sadly, it, it ends in, in suicide, right? Because the, every, their whole identity was based on the performance of the business,

Cindee Wiliams: Right.

Kenny Lange: Which is, is tragic.

And, and I wanna help fight against that. How, how does identity play into our ability as an entrepreneur to. Make it through that grind. 'cause not every season of a business is a grind, but it especially is at the very beginning. Just kinda like a, a rocket burns, 80% of its fuel on takeoff. It just, it takes something from you. Building a business and if it pans out, then it feels like a righteous exhaustion, like a great workout. But otherwise it can, in the middle of it, you're like, why in the hell am I doing this? What is what? What did I, what did I, did I say I wanted to do this? How do we relate those back and create resilient?

How does identity create resilience in the face of the grind if we do believe we're supposed to be helping a certain group out there?

Cindee Wiliams: Right. I, I'm going to [00:26:00] take that to, to kind of a story. We, we, when we launched our. Janitorial company. We, we had no idea what we're doing. It just, it's like the work just came to us. We never advertised, we didn't do anything, it was just word of mouth and it just kept growing and growing and growing until we had this business sometimes.

So it, it felt very natural. It supported our family. It did every, it was, it was a beautiful business. What happened, and maybe people can relate to this as well, there was regulation change. In in 2020. So we built our, our business, we on a subcontractor model, which is very common in the janitorial industry.

And we had subcontractors that worked for us and they were, had their insurance and everything. They had their own legitimate businesses. Well, in 2020 there was a law that came down ab, AB five, I think it was, where you now had to shift to an employee model. So on top of that, so we had to, all these [00:27:00] people, beautiful couples who had worked for us for over 30 years now, had to be paid as an employee.

On top of that, we had 2020 with this whole mix of cards. You throw the deck of cards up in the air and you wake up in the morning and it's all arranged all differently. And my husband and I, we were hiking one morning and he passed out. I thought he had a heart attack. We were up on the side of a mountain and it was just that level of grind that we were in because it was such a mess.

It was covid. I, it was now we had employees. We went through 175 employees that year with a 20 employee business. It was insane. So when I talk about grind, when I think about grind, I think of the last really three years of our company and what we had to do to. Identify who we were in that company.

I had to identify, we, we, my husband's strengths and styles, my strengths and styles, how we could come together to create systems now in a totally [00:28:00] new industry because now we had all these new regulations and being able to do that and put the right people in the right seats. And actually build a different kind of business that now moved us out of the company.

And so I think in entrepreneurship, sometimes we just stay in that solopreneur mindset of you're basically own a job. You just bought, you just bought yourself a job. You're not a W2 anymore, but you're just doing the daily grind every day with no hopes of ever getting out. How do you put the right peoples in the right seats in your organization so that you now can get to the other side and go.

Launch another business, go, do your kingdom impact. And knowing our identities know how my, how my husband and I best work together really solve that piece of the puzzle for us. Because then we were able to like go, okay, you take care of this, you take care of this. This is your role, this is my role.

This is how we bring people on. This is how [00:29:00] we hire, these are our values. It, it like all came together beautifully, but we had to really know who we were first.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. And, and knowing that helped create sort of a, a roadmap out of that K which in, in your case wasn't, wasn't totally your choice, right?

Cindee Wiliams: Right? Yeah.

Kenny Lange: sort of things. They change on you like

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: You with John Maxwell's, like a pess, a pessimist like curses the, the wind, an optimist says, oh, it'll change.

And a leader adjusts the sails.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. You figure it out.

Kenny Lange: yeah, but you have to. But if like, where am I? Good? Where can I find energy and joy, even in a tough time?

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: And where do I need to partner? Whether that's in your case, it literally was your partner,

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: Business, life and otherwise.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: but how can we also find people, even if it's just temporarily to compliment our strengths to [00:30:00] allow us to build out and through

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: season? Thing that I. Actually, I think I had this conversation this morning at Panera where all

Cindee Wiliams: Oh

Kenny Lange: happen. I'm part of a very exclusive membership known as the SIP Club. I'd like to say it's by invitation only, but if you have 1499 a month, you can be a part of it too. But I was talking to another frequent flyer at at our local Panera and. One of the things I said to him, 'cause he's, he's building a, a sales team. And so we just started chatting and I talked to him about self-awareness that, you know, like, I think it was Columbia University did a a huge study on like Fortune 500 or Fortune 100 CEOs and showed self-awareness was one of the top predictors of success.

Cindee Wiliams: Yes.

Kenny Lange: And I'm curious based on what I said, and he may, maybe what I told this gentleman was [00:31:00] totally stupid and you're gonna correct me. And then I'm gonna go and tell him, Hey, someone smarter than me told me this. You should go with what they said is if you, if you get better at self-awareness, knowing yourself, knowing your strengths, like describing it, makes it easier and more likely that you'll be able to identify the strengths and and giftings in others.

Cindee Wiliams: Yes.

Kenny Lange: Especially as a leader, do you find that to be true? Is that something you teach and is there a a method to like seeing that interplay between self-awareness and then maybe a discernment around others?

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah, that awareness is huge. Awareness is huge. I that's an emotional intelligence too, it gets into that, that whole topic. But we, we first, I. When, when I teach my, my client journey starts with discovering who you are and intentionality, and then the next part of that journey is awareness, not how we affect the world, how we, when we walk into a room, how [00:32:00] do others perceive us?

A lot of times we think of awareness, just us, but what is that awareness back to us? If you ever thought about, like when you walk into the room, how do, how are the people perceiving you? And when I, if I get nasty, if I get nasty or irritated with people, it's like, how do I make them feel? And that, that's like a next level awareness that, that we all need to have as leaders.

We always wanna leave the room with people feeling better than, than what we left it. But yeah, that whole awareness component. Is huge, not just of ourselves, but of others as well. And I, I think the more self-discovery and personal development we do on, on ourselves, the, the more we become aware of, of how we affect others and what other people are feeling and are able to make better hires in our businesses, are able to be better employers.

I just read this weekend. I was telling you about the expert [00:33:00] ownership book. There was a statistic that when we hire, we're hiring people that we think we can trust, right? That we go, Hmm, I think I can trust you in this position. I trust that you're gonna be of a good person. 58% of employees do not trust their employers.

I that took me back. They, do they have my back? Do they speak well of me when I'm not in the room? What if I fail? Am I gonna get fired? What, they, they don't trust their employers. That that is a huge awareness piece. How do my employees feel about me? Do they feel supported? Do they feel safe to fail in my organization?

And, and then learn and, and learn from our mistakes? So yeah, awareness is a huge, huge piece. Yeah.

Kenny Lange: And sometimes it's just a matter of, of asking, the, there's a couple of of really good [00:34:00] questions that I learned over the years, and it's always terrifying that on some level for me to ask this and, and more and more as I've gotten more, more secure in just who I am and also feel like I don't show up like a jack wagon as often anymore. I, I feel a little more confident in asking the question but one was what's it like to be on the other side of me?

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: Especially for, for those of us who, if you are a fan of, of DISC and you're in that high D category that's, that's a. It's a, that could be a scary proposition

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: get told that you are scary.

It's like, look, every time we talk youe my eyebrows.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: And I'm tired of looking like that and answering weird questions. The other that I actually I wanna give credit where credit's due. He probably stole it from someone else, but whatever. Was Ian Morgan Kron on the Typology podcast?

I'm a huge fan of the Enneagram as a

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. Oh yeah. It's so good.

Kenny Lange: But he, he gave a question that I've incorporated and I even share with clients is, what do you know about me that I [00:35:00] don't, but I should,

Cindee Wiliams: Oh, I like that.

Kenny Lange: right? Because it's highlighting for them. I want you to pick out something you think I'm unaware of, but I would be better off if I did know it. I asked the employees of my first company. I asked them that right after I learned it at that, whew. Man, I had to, I had to really sit with their answers.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: thankfully there was, there was a high degree of trust,

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: to where they, they were as Kim Scott would say, radically candid with me.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: And it was a real gift, but man it was, it was like surgery.

And then those, those cuts

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. Yeah.

Kenny Lange: I'm, I'm better off now for it. But anyways, I always tell people, I was like, look, ask these questions. I wanna tell you this, it sounds real simple to say. Just brace yourself for the answers, because as soon as you put it out there, if you have some people who are really willing to, to, share with you,

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.[00:36:00]

Kenny Lange: you may, you, you probably won't like what you hear.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: At first because man, it's every flaw you have and, and when we're leaders and we're out front we're, we've got all these insecurities and we're trying to cover 'em up or compensate for 'em or something like that, but to what you're saying about really knowing who you are, pushes back against that insecurity.

'cause you can be insecure who you are and then appreciate how someone else might be built differently.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's a a form of emotional maturity and, and really bravery to, to be able to do that. 'cause it's a courageous question because you're going to have to be able to see yourself through somebody else's eyes. And yeah, we may not like it at first, but that's a nugget of truth. Right. You have to go, okay.

Well maybe. Not so much that, but yeah, I need, really need to work on that. I, I did have women tell me that they were intimidated by me at first, and I, I, that would be the, the d coming out 'cause I am pretty strong and [00:37:00] I'd say what's on my mind. And so I had to learn to soften that and, and just to be aware of that and learn how to realize when I'm just being very dogmatic.

And so I, I love that question. That's a, a very brave question to ask. I love that.

Kenny Lange: Brave or stupid, it's a fine line.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. You know what else goes along with that is I, I like to ask people that I'm in friendships with, or my husband, I'll ask him or our kids from time to time, I, I ask them to, and I think I got this oh, is it Jack Sullivan from his book success Principles be able to say, Hey, what do you rate our relationship?

One to 10, what do you relate our relationship? And if they come back and, and say a five, just say, well, how can we make it a 10? What could I do to make it a 10? And I, I've asked that of our kids, I've asked that of my husband, and it's been really eye-opening. And then again, you have to be brave enough to hear it and, and move forward.

And that's all awareness.

Kenny Lange: right. And then to do [00:38:00] something with

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: talking about earlier, is you, you gotta get out and you gotta take action. That, that I've found taking action on feedback does so much to build trust, even making the attempt.

Cindee Wiliams: Yes.

Kenny Lange: Seems meaningful when I, like you and I are saying like, we're just so results oriented.

I was like, well, I tried, it failed and that, so you probably hate what I did. And they're like, no. Like I, I saw that you made an effort to address this thing I told you. So now I will feel more comfortable telling you other maybe difficult things.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: Future. I'm like, oh, my wife has really helped me with that with our kids. 'Cause I'm, I'm reading all these leadership things and applying 'em all at work, and then apparently I empty my brain out before I deal with my family.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: and my wife has just helped me like, slow down, calm

Cindee Wiliams: Yes.

Kenny Lange: Like your, your personality and your words weigh about 800 pounds to these kids and to me. And I know where you're coming from. Like, I'm an adult, I know [00:39:00] you, I love you. I know what your heart is saying, I was like, these are also kids.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: like you need to slow it down because I have found just like a good leadership is good parenting and good parenting is good leadership. Some people don't like that I say that.

I say those people can, but don't email me 'cause I'll just, I'll dismiss your email or I'll have my assistant send you

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: But, but doing that to really understand, oh, like that, what's it like to be on the other side of me piece?

Cindee Wiliams: yeah,

Kenny Lange: and that's been, it's, it has been really difficult.

It has been really hard. 'cause there's sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh. was like, why do I have to change for everybody? Is anybody changing to meet my needs? And I get a little pity party and

Cindee Wiliams: yeah, yeah. We can do that. We can do that, but, but not, yeah.

Kenny Lange: that. You're being selfish. I'm like, yes ma'am, you're right.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. Yeah. Do you want, do you know your wife's disc style?

Kenny Lange: I don't, I don't think she's done it. I know she's a nine on the Enneagram.

Cindee Wiliams: Okay. Okay. I, I had my [00:40:00] husband take the, the disc and, and something that I, I love to do when I work with couples who are entrepreneurs together is take both of their disc. Profiles and put them within AI and be able to assign their, their roles, where their best, and, and then be able to create conversations where they're struggling.

Being able to create conversation starters between the two of 'em. It's helped us tremendously. 'cause my husband's an s so he, I'm. Slow to make decisions. We've been married 34 years, so it's worked, but that has helped tremendously. Just knowing how to communicate best with each other.

Kenny Lange: If I had to guess, I would, I would guess my, my wife would fall into that, that same category.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah '

Kenny Lange: cause we're coming up on 16 years of marriage, so hopefully, we'll, we'll make it

Cindee Wiliams: you.

Kenny Lange: But just a couple years ago, I had us take the Enneagram group that [00:41:00] I, I got accredited through. Also has a couple's version that they released. And I was like, oh, this is cool. And I read through it and I was like, oh my gosh. If we had had this about three years into our marriage, I was like, there's like years of pain

Cindee Wiliams: Oh yeah.

Kenny Lange: because it was like, here's how you communicate and here, some things in like parenting and intimacy and all these other things.

I was

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: Dang, that nailed us because I refer to us as an unstoppable force, meaning an immovable object.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. Yeah,

Kenny Lange: and which is, I, I think has, has panned out. But we've definitely had to learn and. Give

Cindee Wiliams: yeah.

Kenny Lange: and grow ourselves and,

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: everything. So, Cindy there's probably like 37 more topics that we could get into.

Maybe we will, we'll have like a, a entrepreneurship and, and marriage episode as well. 'cause I'm sure that that's a lot of fun. But if someone's listening and they're like, you know what, this makes a lot of sense. Like I do, [00:42:00] I do wanna know myself better. Seems like that's a big domino I could push over. that would unlock a lot of next steps for me. is that first step? That baby step that someone listening says, I, I wanna, I wanna move forward with this, but what could I do in the next 24 hours with spending little to no money? To start to have greater self-awareness and, and just more clarity like you were saying, around my identity.

Cindee Wiliams: I, I think the, the number one thing that you can do is identify. After you get off this call, identify one person, I, I would say three to five that is doing what you want to do at a higher, faster, stronger level than you. And, and call them up right now. Text them, email them, whatever it takes, and take them out to coffee.

Just have a conversation with them. Like, does having conversations with people who are, who are where you wanna be [00:43:00] is life changing? So that's, it's go out, stop thinking about it, just go out, take the action, and, and do it with somebody else in connection.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Because through what transformations, changes, evolutions they've made within themselves can start to highlight a potential path for you to follow. And you

Cindee Wiliams: Absolutely.

Kenny Lange: yeah, that was like, you

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah. Yeah,

Kenny Lange: 30 years ago I was doing this, I was thinking

Cindee Wiliams: yeah,

Kenny Lange: this. You're like, that's me,

Cindee Wiliams: yeah.

Kenny Lange: Like you can start to, echo locate,

Cindee Wiliams: Mm-hmm.

Kenny Lange: where you are in the big, in a big picture amongst those fellow travelers on the journey.

Cindee Wiliams: Yeah.

Kenny Lange: I love that. if people wanna know more about you and, and your work and, and your thoughts and or the disc where do you send, how should they connect with you?

Cindee Wiliams: I, I think the, the best, easiest place to go is just to lead my life.com. If you wanna connect with me on a call, just schedule a call and, and we will talk, or you can find out more [00:44:00] about Disc on there, more about my personal journey. There's things about my membership, all of that on lead my life.com.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. And I also want to commend you for getting that URL because that would probably, you'd have to spend like $30,000 to buy it today.

Cindee Wiliams: Oh.

Kenny Lange: it's such a, it's clear, it's simple. 'cause I've looked at some extra ones for myself and I'm like. I am not paying that amount of money for this

Cindee Wiliams: It's crazy.

Kenny Lange: I was like, I guess I need to think of a different name.

So, alright. And we'll have a link to that your LinkedIn, your email your YouTube all in the show notes. So if people wanna consume more of your content and find those things out but obviously go to the website, reach out to Cindy. She's she is a serve first type of individual. I know she'll either have the answer or point you in the right direction. So thank you so much. I look forward to having you back in the future and just having more conversations with you. 'cause I'm, I've, we've only had two calls, but I'm already learning a ton and you got my head spinning. So I think I need to go wander out and go for a [00:45:00] hike. And, and figure some things out. But thank you listeners for spending a part of your day with, with me and with Cindy. And, and we hope not only did you learn something, but maybe you were also mildly entertained because we don't wanna be boring. But I, if you got value from this episode, like rate review on whatever platform, YouTube, Spotify, apple, leave me some feedback. I want to know how I'm doing, how the show's doing, and how it could add more value to you. Are there people, are there topics, are there subjects, are there conversations that would help unlock your next step in leadership? Those are the things I wanna do. I enjoy this. I'm meeting meet people like Cindy all the time. But I need to know who, who do we need to bring in because the show is for. So let me know those things in the comments or notes, or shoot me an email kenny@kennylang.com. And I'm, I'm happy to, to feel those respond and, and figure it out with you. But until next time, change the way you think.

You'll change the way you lead. We'll see you.

[00:46:00]