How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

HLT Tara Landes Full Interview
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[00:00:00] Tara Landes: when you ask for feedback, we've been. Trained through our experiences to think it's going to be negative. When we ask for advice, we're asking for the person to be on our team.

[00:00:11] So feedback is I am telling you what to do. I am other from you. When I ask for advice, now we're co-creating together,

[00:00:18] ​

[00:00:23] Kenny Lange: Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host Kenny Lang, and with me today is the.

[00:00:32] Tara Landis, she is a founder and a consultant for 25 years. She has been the secret weapon behind 300 plus. That's Leonis and all those people who fought 300 small businesses. And they have used her to solve operational challenges, which those are the hardest ones. Anyways, she's a certified change management practitioner from the Prosci, no hyphen, although I'm suggesting it.

[00:00:59] The [00:01:00] Prosci Institute. Go look it up. We'll link it. Annie Licensed Influence Trainer from the Cini Institute, which he's got some great books. She's also the lead faculty member for the Bell Rock Management Training Program, and she has graduated 950 plus students. I feel like you should just round it up and just say a thousand plus probably at this point.

[00:01:21] But anyway, welcome to the show, Tara.

[00:01:24] Tara Landes: Thank you so much for having me, Kenny. I'm excited to talk to you today.

[00:01:28] Kenny Lange: I am too. I feel like we've already brainstormed like three other episodes probably that we can cover including change ma management as applied to parenting. So if anybody's

[00:01:40] Tara Landes: one.

[00:01:40] Kenny Lange: I'll, I will, I'll start it. You could be lead faculty there as well and we'll update the bio. So it'll just be about parenting teens, but tell me today, Tara, what is on your mind?

[00:01:54] Tara Landes: Well, just before I got on this call with you, I was on a call with a woman named Jenny, who I'm coaching. [00:02:00] And we were talking about feedback and giving feedback. So in our management training program that we run one of the classes that we talk do is feedback. How do you give feedback? And one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about lately is that.

[00:02:17] Although we teach how to give feedback, it really doesn't matter how good you are at giving feedback. What matters is how good you are at receiving feedback, and that's what I've been thinking about today.

[00:02:32] Kenny Lange: And that's all the time we have. I think we can just end it right there. That is the quote, the headline. I wanna tell my editor there. That's, we, I think we got the episode title. That is phenomenal. It's spurring and sparking a lot of thoughts for me. What. Because a lot of people listening to this they've probably been on both sides of that, right?

[00:02:53] Like the, this is a podcast, podcast for leaders or anybody growing in their leadership, but odds are you've, in a [00:03:00] professional setting or maybe even a casual setting just with in relationships or with children. In a professional setting, you've been on the receiving end of some sort of evaluation of some sort.

[00:03:10] You've had to receive feedback. And then if you're lucky enough to be in management or anything like that, you've probably been told, Hey you've gotta do these quarterly or these annual reviews and you gotta give feedback. And then broke out into a flop sweat. So tell me what you have seen.

[00:03:26] 'cause obviously you're highly like trained, certified, and ex and an experienced entrepreneur. What do you see as the prevailing wisdom around feedback and why does the statement you just made about the problem is not in giving, it's in the receiving. Why might that run against the grain of the prevailing wisdom?

[00:03:49] Tara Landes: Well, I think there's a lot of training on how to give feedback, and there are lots of software applications that allow you to give feedback and it's a huge thing, right? Right. It's, it, there's a, there's [00:04:00] millions and millions of dollars organized around giving feedback, but if you give it and the person doesn't take it, what was the point?

[00:04:08] And there's also thinking around when I say feedback, so the Cialdini training will tell you that you shouldn't ask for feedback. You should ask for advice because feedback has this negative connotation to it. But every feedback is happening all the time. I'm getting feedback right now about how thirsty I might be.

[00:04:27] I'm getting feedback about all sorts of things. Feedback is just constantly happening. I. We need to be able to be aware of it and understand it.

[00:04:37] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. So with this heavy investment, globally on how to be better at giving feedback I would imagine a lot of that is because that's. That's the initiating side, right? So there, there's a bit more control, which I think that there's probably some good logic behind that and maybe even some really good intent.

[00:04:58] [00:05:00] What about that are though, are we getting. Wrong like it are you advocating for less training on how to give really good feedback, or are you advocating for let's raise up the training on receiving to that same level, standard popularity.

[00:05:17] Tara Landes: Yes. That's what I'm advocating for. So the problem on the giving feedback side, there, there are several of them. One of them is that that we think of feedback in terms of negative what am I doing wrong? But we also know there's research that shows that. When people give feedback about what you're good at, that will have a far greater impact on your performance.

[00:05:40] If now, which isn't to say that we're just supposed to be Pollyanna and only finding the things that people do, well, that's not it at all. But if you think about an Olympic athlete, why do they have a coach? They have a coach because they need feedback, because they have a perspective on their performance that is 100% [00:06:00] accurate.

[00:06:01] But the coach also has a 100% accurate perspective on their performance, and where those two perspectives meet is the truth. It's somewhere in the middle, and so we need to know how to give good feedback, helpful feedback, constructive feedback, which can be about the things you're good at or not good at, doesn't matter.

[00:06:21] Good feedback. And then we need the way to be able to accept it in an emotionally healthy way and understand that person cared enough about you. To give you that feedback. It's a gift. It's a gift. When someone cares enough to tell you their truth about how they see you, and you can take it or not, you can accept it or not.

[00:06:44] They aren't right. You're not right. It's somewhere in the middle and it's really hopefully not personal. They're not coming at you from a place of anger. Hopefully, they're coming at you from a place of love and that actually does get into parenting.[00:07:00]

[00:07:01] Kenny Lange: Right. Well, and I've always maintained, I was like good leadership is good parenting and good parenting is generally good leadership. But so there's two things with what you're saying that come to mind. Number one I wanna go back to what you mentioned about that, that change of questioning that the Cini Institute advocates for, you know, using advice.

[00:07:21] Can you, number one, just share that, that definition, that contrast of feedback from advice. 'cause I think anecdotally we could say, oh yeah, I get it, but maybe not understand really what that means or what it's doing. And then number two how, you mentioned feedback as being, it sounds like a really positive things, but.

[00:07:43] From like the Olympic coaching aspect. But is there a time for feedback versus advice? Is there a time when we need one and not the other if they really are different? Or is it just a matter of language and framing and psychology.

[00:07:58] Tara Landes: I do see it as a more, a [00:08:00] language and framing. I do see it that way, that people, they when you ask for feedback, we've been. Trained through our experiences in the world to con to think it's going to be negative. When we ask for advice, we're asking for the person to be on our team.

[00:08:19] So feedback is I am telling you what to do. I am other from you. When I ask for advice, now we're create co-creating together,

[00:08:30] Kenny Lange: I gotcha.

[00:08:31] Tara Landes: that speaks. That speaks to a principle of unity, but it's the idea of co-creating, being on my team, not away from my team, but on my team with me to improve the world or do whatever the advice is about.

[00:08:46] Yeah.

[00:08:47] Kenny Lange: Well then from that standpoint let's say I'm totally against like annual performance reviews. I don't I even think that there's multiple studies now that, that show that they're all but worthless apart from a, an HR [00:09:00] CYA activity. But, should we be calling people in and say, Hey, it's time for your, I'm calling you in for this quarterly conversation.

[00:09:08] I'd like to give you some advice if I could.

[00:09:10] Tara Landes: Mm-hmm. Right? Like, um, You don't normally say, Hey, I'm gonna give you some advice, and you're the initiator a lot of times. And the ideal situation as, Hey, could I ask for your advice on this?

[00:09:24] Exactly. And then we hope that somebody cares enough to give us their advice.

[00:09:31] Kenny Lange: Right now, again, I hate devil's advocate as a phrase. I think he's got enough. But you have a book on your shelf behind you. And this is how much of a book nerd I am because I recog, I can't read it. But I recognize the color scheme on the spine, which is the coaching habit from Michael Bunge Stanier.

[00:09:50] And of course he has a couple of other books. And one of 'em is,

[00:09:53] Tara Landes: advice trap.

[00:09:54] Kenny Lange: The advice trap, and he talks about killing the advice monster, at least holding it off a little bit longer. [00:10:00] Um, So from, you know, someone who is a, a, a coach and a consultant we both operate in that space and we might even teach our clients the same thing.

[00:10:09] How do you have that jive with being a little more. Coach like the giving of advice versus the asking of questions and revealing potential because at the end of the day the leader and the manager is the one who's initiating this sort of, cadence of, feedback.

[00:10:31] Tara Landes: I think that first of all. That, that, that fact that you just said that it's the manager that's initiating, I think that's really unfortunate. I agree that's the case, but I think it's really unfortunate because I wish that more people wanted to improve their performance. And when we're talking about leaders, for example, they don't have a boss.

[00:10:53] They have the bank and shareholders and whoever, but they don't have a boss. They don't get a, they don't get an annual performance evaluation. [00:11:00] They might not even know what their job description should be. And so I think that leaders in particular really need to ask for advice from all sorts of different people, from their employees, from their managers, from their clients, all sorts of different people.

[00:11:15] So I think it's too bad that it comes from the manager. But with that said, I also think one of the best ways to provide that advice or feedback is through questions, is having someone come to the realization themself. Now, there are things that they will never realize. If you don't know how to read your income statement, I'm not gonna ask you question after question.

[00:11:37] I'm just gonna teach you how to do it

[00:11:39] Kenny Lange: Yeah, Socratic method might not be great for accounting.

[00:11:42] Tara Landes: Right. But Michael makes a great point that if we can just stay curious a little bit longer, if we can just ask one more question, then we're going to get a much richer conversation. So those questions, I think open peoples up. I. Eventually, yes, you do have to tell them things.

[00:11:58] And when you mentioned about the [00:12:00] annual performance evaluation and doing away with that, it's interesting what happened there as well because as I recall, what happened is a bunch of consulting companies, I. Decided that it's a waste of time to do an annual performance evaluation because nobody actually gives real feedback or real advice anyway.

[00:12:16] All of the people on my team are star players and all of them deserve a raise, and they're all amazing except for the one I can't stand, but I can't stand them, so I don't even want to tell them what's wrong with them. That's. But in the absence of those evaluations, when they took that away, what they were supposed to do is then have regularly scheduled, rarely missed, ideally, face-to-face, one-on-one conversations that were full and rich with feedback and advice, and that piece didn't happen.

[00:12:45] And so if that piece isn't happening and we get rid of an annual performance evaluation, now a person is left with no feedback at all.

[00:12:56] Kenny Lange: Right, which is one of the top reasons cited when people [00:13:00] leave organizations. Which really I mean it's a little cliche, but it's still, I think, very true is that people join organizations but they leave people.

[00:13:07] But the lack of adequate, and I'll say adequate 'cause I don't think we've, as a business professional culture, whether it's just here in the states or globally, have reached a level of adequacy.

[00:13:18] So a lack of adequate and frequent and timely feedback. I don't know if I'm winning, which honestly I think is a little undignifying towards those that are in our care.

[00:13:34] Tara Landes: I couldn't agree with you more. And you do have to care to give someone appropriate feedback that they can work with. If you don't care enough, you're not gonna, you're not gonna do it. It's hard. It's really hard. And I often hear from my clients, they'll say, well, yeah, but I'm too nice. I'm too nice. I can't tell them that because I'm too nice and I don't think that's nice at all.

[00:13:56] I don't think it's nice at all. If you, if I saw you [00:14:00] with spinach in your teeth right now and I didn't tell you, that's not kind or nice, that's horrible to let you go around the world like that.

[00:14:09] Kenny Lange: Well, this is where this is speaking of like psychological framing on words. I have a degree in speech communication, but the only thing I can do is split hairs over words. But that, that, and talk a lot. So I have a podcast instead of a blog, but the the idea of nice versus kind.

[00:14:28] You are too nice.

[00:14:29] It would be kind to tell them the truth. It would be nice to not upset the apple cart and just let bad behavior, poor performance, something else go along. This is why I love Brene Brown's sentence or phrase around, to be clear is to be kind.

[00:14:47] Tara Landes: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:14:48] Kenny Lange: And, And not speaking with a certain level of candor is you're not being clear, which means you're not being kind and setting kindness and niceties [00:15:00] aside.

[00:15:00] If you're being unclear as a leader, I think you're not being a very good leader.

[00:15:05] Tara Landes: I would agree with you, and I'll go a step further and say that while. Humans generally experience discomfort if they're giving feedback to somebody. What they don't experience fe discomfort with is talking about that person behind their back. And so you get this situation where I, I'm gonna tell everybody this, that you have spinach in your teeth except for you.

[00:15:32] Oh, did you see Kenny? He had spinach in his teeth. Oh yeah, I saw that. Yeah. He's always got spinach in his teeth. Yeah. I can't believe that guy. We have to get him a toothbrush. Yeah, someone should get him. You go on this whole journey with others, how is the individual supposed to fix their teeth if you don't tell them?

[00:15:49] And now you're telling everyone else. You're raising everyone else's awareness of their lack of ability and not going straight to the source. And leaders suffer from that, most of all, because nobody wants to [00:16:00] tell them.

[00:16:01] Kenny Lange: Yeah. Yeah, if you get into any sort of 360, depending on how you've led and that, that could, we could go off on a tangent around like psychological safety and how that's created and all of that, and that could have a lot of fun. But in the interest of staying on topic and not getting shiny object syndrome, which I'm prone to, I want to go back to the receiving feedback, so laying some groundwork here as we've just done for good feedback. The impetus for it the character of it, and I think some of those foundational things, not the mechanics of it so much, but just the psychology and the heart and all of the humanity really of it.

[00:16:39] Let's talk about how people go into. These conversations, whether formal or sometimes they happen to you, like their informal feedback sessions. How are people entering into these conversations that is making it so that they're not being good feedback [00:17:00] receivers and Yeah.

[00:17:02] Let's start there.

[00:17:03] Tara Landes: So I think, I think the orientation that one should have around feedback is gratitude. I think we should be grateful. If somebody cares enough to give you feedback, you should thank them for it because it wasn't easy for them. It puts us in a state of discomfort. So the first point is to be grateful that they cared enough.

[00:17:26] I also think that people should not immediately react to feedback. So if I'm now spinach in the teeth. Yeah, you can pick it outta your teeth, for the most part, we can't do something instantly about it, and we need to consider it if somebody. Was generous enough to tell us something that we can improve or change.

[00:17:46] If they were generous enough to put their self on the line for that, then it would almost be disrespectful to immediately react either

[00:17:56] Kenny Lange: even in a positive

[00:17:57] Tara Landes: I think so, yeah, you [00:18:00] react in the sense of Thank you for sharing that with me, and that's a positive reaction.

[00:18:04] Kenny Lange: Right. That's an acknowledgement, but it's not the here, oh, let me go off on all I'm going to do and this and what

[00:18:12] Tara Landes: me consider what you said. Let me think about it. I'm gonna come back to you and I'm gonna tell you what I've done with this information, but let me think about it.

[00:18:22] Kenny Lange: Yeah. So when someone's given the feedback, we're hearing it. Hey, thank you so much for telling me that or being willing to I have had some people just because getting back to what you were saying a minute ago about some leaders are often the people least likely to hear things.

[00:18:42] And it's not just because positionally, like sometimes the, their character, their demeanor. Can put something out there. I'm speaking from experience. I've had people who said they don't want to tell me things, or they haven't wanted to tell me things because they were they said that I'm really [00:19:00] intense, or for some reason I intimidated them.

[00:19:03] And I'm like, I'm not six five, like 200. I'm not, I don't, I'm not built like a lineman. I don't know what it is, but ji people's eyebrows I guess. But I have had people say that and I'm like, oh, well, I. Number one, that's, sorry you feel that way, but two then I really appreciate that you stepped in to your feeling about that.

[00:19:23] Like you were saying, it's like you cared enough about me to say I, I see more. I view feedback, at least when you're talking about. Helping someone grow in an area. You can grow in something positive. And I am a fan of that, like the whole like strengths-based leadership, like you have more room to grow in areas where you're strong than just shoring up weaknesses.

[00:19:46] But they saw more in me than I was seeing in myself.

[00:19:51] Oh, I didn't think I was capable of this thing and I was having this impact. And because I would you think it's fair to say that most leaders [00:20:00] are chiefly concerned about the end result? Like end of the day they wanna see a certain outcome output result?

[00:20:08] Tara Landes: Well, they should be. I mean, That's the job of the leader

[00:20:11] Kenny Lange: Yeah. If you're not just quit your job and tell 'em that me and Tara told you to quit. But but if you are and you see something, and this helped reframe feedback for me. 'cause I would take it personally oh, like I, I view it through the lens of I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, and doggone it, people don't like me.

[00:20:27] I just took the Stuart Smalley and flipped it. Some of you were like, what? Just go watch the eighties and nineties SNL, but. The but the idea of, oh they just really, like you said, gratitude. They gave me a gift, they gave me an opportunity, they saw something in me and they were willing to step past their own discomfort, thank them for it, and then say, okay, yeah, let me, I.

[00:20:50] Think about that. So that's a great first step. Now, if I, if you've just shared something with me, let's take the spinach and the teeth piece off the table [00:21:00] that you said maybe something that I could do better as an interviewer, which I've asked a lot of people, especially those who podcast quite a bit, off camera.

[00:21:09] Probably to save my dignity. Like what's one thing I could do better? And I'm actually gonna change my question now. Instead of, could you gimme some feedback, could you give me some advice? You say, oh, I thought you, you talked way too much, which I probably am right now. And I go, okay, great. Thank you for sharing that with me.

[00:21:27] What do I do if I'm trying to become a better receiver of feedback? Do I need to close a loop with you? Do I need to set a date? Does that come from me? Does it come from you or is it just, Hey, we had a moment I received it. You could see it's, I'm sitting with it and thinking about it, and that was all.

[00:21:49] And you did your responsibility, right? Like you can't make me do it. But you shared what you saw and honored me in the process. I respected it. I showed gratitude. [00:22:00] Now what?

[00:22:02] Tara Landes: Well, I think you do close the loop and I'm thinking specifically of a circumstance with a mentor of mine where he was doing a certain thing and I really didn't. He's brilliant at what he does, but there was a specific thing he was doing that I. Found. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. He was referring to women in a certain way, and maybe it was an age thing, maybe it was like, I don't know why, but it was part of his standard shtick that he did.

[00:22:32] And so I asked another woman first and I said, is it just me? Do you notice this too? Because I didn't wanna just come off all, anyway, she noticed it as well. And so I asked him privately if we could have a word, and I shared the feedback with him and he, I could tell he got a bit defensive with it as one would, that's just a human reaction.

[00:22:54] But then. A couple days later, he emailed me and said, I thought about what [00:23:00] you said. I figured out a way to change it. I tried it and it worked, and I don't, he said, I don't know if it's better, but it's not worse, and I just really appreciated him closing that loop. I. I brought it up. It was uncomfortable for me to bring up.

[00:23:16] I don't, I didn't enjoy talking about it, but I felt I cared about him enough to let him know what my perspective was, and he cared enough about me to let me know what he did with my perspective and

[00:23:31] Kenny Lange: Now, did he tell you he was gonna try this?

[00:23:33] Tara Landes: Yeah. And then he

[00:23:34] Kenny Lange: back to you?

[00:23:34] Tara Landes: Yeah, he came back and we had an exchange and he closed the loop on it, which actually encourages me maybe to tell him other things and be even more generous with my feedback.

[00:23:46] I. So that he can improve because we all have room for improvement and I'm, I find that I'm very generous when it comes to complimentary feedback, but I am less so when it comes to the more constructive feedback. So [00:24:00] I think closing the loop really matters because it encourages more feedback.

[00:24:04] Kenny Lange: Now, where do you think that the catalyst or the responsibility for saying. I want to close the loop and here's how, or at least an idea,

[00:24:15] Where does the responsibility in that interaction sit with the giver or the receiver of that

[00:24:21] Tara Landes: The receiver, I think. Yeah. So

[00:24:23] Kenny Lange: them set the terms.

[00:24:24] Tara Landes: yeah. And, but if you don't, as I mentioned, I think. We need to get a lot better at receiving giving as well. But receiving is the piece that I think I'm focused on here. And so I think if somebody cared enough to give you feedback, then you should care enough to tell them what you did with it and what you did with it might be nothing. say, I thought about what you said, I considered this and that, and I've decided that's not a priority for me right now.

[00:24:53] I think that's reasonable.

[00:24:55] Kenny Lange: Right. And.

[00:24:57] Tara Landes: Or I don't agree with you, or whatever, you can say [00:25:00] that

[00:25:00] Kenny Lange: went and got some other input from other trusted advisors or whoever. And here's the conclusion I'm at for now.

[00:25:07] Tara Landes: Yeah.

[00:25:08] Kenny Lange: Right. And I may be in a disagreement with you, but at least you had that, that, that leads me to a couple of things. Number one, is that how we treat. Whether it's formal or informal, like your example with your mentor, that's an informal, Hey, could I talk to you for a second?

[00:25:26] A weekly one-on-one, a quarterly review something like that a little, that those can feel more formal, they're more structured. How we handle the feedback in that moment determines how likely the next one will go in the next one. And really what it. Draws down to, I think what I hear you say.

[00:25:45] 'cause you mentioned in your case that was with someone who had been a mentor to you, you had built a relationship with over a period of time is and why probably that get rid of annual reviews and it didn't get replaced with what was supposed to happen. [00:26:00] The relationship wasn't built.

[00:26:02] Tara Landes: Yeah.

[00:26:02] Kenny Lange: No relation. There was no relational equity for us to bet against that on withdraw from the bank, whatever imagery you prefer. But you had some relational equity to where this person knew from the get tarter cares about me and I care about her.

[00:26:21] Tara Landes: Yes.

[00:26:22] Kenny Lange: so if we can start from that place, then I think we could have that conversation.

[00:26:26] Whereas what I think when. It's poorly received and poorly given. I notice it's a bit abrupt,

[00:26:35] And not based on, on a, a real relationship or a healthy one where really like trust and reciprocity exist.

[00:26:43] Tara Landes: Yes. And I'm glad you used the word reciprocity. Reciprocity

[00:26:46] Kenny Lange: on the SATs.

[00:26:48] Tara Landes: well, reciprocity is one of the seven principles of per ethical persuasion that Cialdini talks about, and he also talks about one called liking. And there are a lot of research around this [00:27:00] that we like to work with and listen to people that we like, and it doesn't take much time to create a relationship of liking and trust.

[00:27:11] In fact, it takes 10 or 15 minutes. It takes 10 or 15 minutes to have a conversation with someone about something that you have in common. I like potato chips. I like potato chips. Alright, we like each other. It, you don't, it doesn't have to be that deep. And right there you're creating that relationship.

[00:27:29] So if you take the idea of say, a, an annual performance evaluation hopefully you've developed some sort of relationship with that person. But whether you are the receiver or the giver of the evaluation, I would really encourage people to start that meeting with a conversation about something they have in common.

[00:27:47] Start building the liking. I would also, and I, this sometimes comes across as very controversial. I also think that if it's my job to evaluate you, nothing should be a surprise in that [00:28:00] evaluation. And if it's a written evaluation, I should probably send it to you in advance. So if you have to do a self-evaluation, and I have to write my evaluation of you, which is the system that most companies use.

[00:28:14] I want you to write yours, but then I'm gonna send you mine. I don't want you to read mine first before you write yours, but I want you to have it first. And I actually don't care if you send me yours.

[00:28:27] We are gonna have a conversation and talk about it. I think it's disrespectful for people to get that kind of feedback in the moment and have to react in the moment.

[00:28:36] It's just too amygdala stimulating.

[00:28:40] Kenny Lange: Yeah, well, at least for the vast majority of the population, if you look at a lot of the personality assessments, most people are long processors not fast processors. And so I. Even if you go, well, I don't have a problem with this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, you may not like for me or for, I would say most entrepreneurial people we [00:29:00] have to be like, whether we wanted to or not, we had to be fast on our feet, so we could probably take it in.

[00:29:06] Process, give initial reaction, do all of that. But we're in the minority. And when you're leading people, you can't lead them as if you wanted to be led that way. You have to think about what you know about them. That's where the relationship comes in. Or if you're newer into a management leadership relationship with them, you'll just play the statistics of that.

[00:29:29] Which

[00:29:30] Tara Landes: I talk about the platinum rule, so, the Golden Rule. Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. The platinum rule is do unto others as they would have you do unto them.

[00:29:40] It's not, don't treat me as, don't treat others as you would wanna be treated. Treat others as they want to be treated.

[00:29:48] Kenny Lange: Yeah, I've, well, and I'll say this, I didn't get into the back and forth. I was hoping for with a managed, we'll call 'em a management expert online about [00:30:00] that. 'cause they were refuting that. Now I totally hear what you're saying. And I do agree with that. Like how would you prefer to be treated?

[00:30:07] I like to take. Golden rule, which, it's a golden rule, but it's rooted in biblical text is more about if I were being led, like I would want to be asked how I would want to be led, get it meta in instead of the actual task, like the outcome. If we just elevated up there, then we can go, well, how would I wanna be treated?

[00:30:27] I would want to be asked like, Hey what's effective for you? What has worked well for you in the past, what are you doing now? That's one reason why I love doing the the personal roadmap exercise with my clients or audiences, is really starting to understand some of their wiring and their goals and personal and professional.

[00:30:46] And then giving an agenda, which we can link up in the show notes or something like that. To say Hey, like we're going over these things, but if I'm leading you, then I need to understand you and what matters to you and [00:31:00] how do I need to phrase things so that you hear them in the way I intended.

[00:31:04] Again, getting back to that sort of like results driven mindset, right? The end result, just and you could probably give the science behind this from your studies with the change management. Stuff is the end result is that we make the positive change, whatever that may be. Correct.

[00:31:27] Tara Landes: Correct.

[00:31:28] Kenny Lange: so I am working against my own interests. If I stubbornly adhere to the way I've always done things, or I think they should be said, even if it's really frustrating, which again, we could get back into raising teenagers. But is there anything from your research and training and stuff that helps inform some of that or maybe some frames for us as givers and receivers of feedback to make sure we're in the frame of mind or interpreting those things correctly so we more often can receive [00:32:00] feedback positively.

[00:32:01] Tara Landes: I think language matters here, and so I'm going to define a leader as being different than a manager.

[00:32:10] Kenny Lange: Please.

[00:32:11] Tara Landes: Now when you're being a leader, when you're, when you have a leader hat on, everybody is the same. It's like playing checkers. They're all checkers pieces. They all move in the same way.

[00:32:21] There's no difference. We're all going this way. Come with me. Here we go. We're going there together. It's gonna be great. But a manager deals with chess pieces. Every person is their own unique snowflake. They all need to be managed in their own unique way. And so from a leadership perspective, we treat everyone the same, but from a management perspective, we have to treat them as they need, and want to be treated.

[00:32:52] Kenny Lange: That's another episode. You just sparked more ideas for me on that. 'cause it's something I talk about some with [00:33:00] clients or from the stage, but I know you could probably help me give some clarity on my thinking around that. So what happens, let's say we we accidentally stumble in.

[00:33:11] To receiving feedback, right? It wasn't formally set up and, or no one said, Hey, could I talk to you in a little bit or on Tuesday Hey, tomorrow, do you have some time around 10? Just something I want to go over with you. Right? Even that is like semi formal s structured, but we just stumble into a conversation and all of a sudden there's this feedback.

[00:33:34] It just naturally took us there. What can we do when we feel like, oh we're wandering into territory and either I am genuinely curious about what this person has to say, or they were generally they were genuinely interested in sharing what they had to say. And I didn't want to be rude and just say, Hey, could you stop talking?

[00:33:57] Just shush and put our finger up to their mouth. [00:34:00] What could we do as receivers of feedback to maybe be better at it, maybe more gracious at it or just spotting when we start, like the conversations going that way.

[00:34:10] Tara Landes: Well, I think again, say thank you. If somebody cared enough, then you say thank you. You appreciate them for giving you that feedback. You can ask clarifying questions that's totally permissible, like if

[00:34:23] Kenny Lange: those up and say, Hey, could I appreciate what you're saying. Could I ask some clarifying questions? Or do you have a better way of getting at that? 'cause some people may feel like, oh, well, you're just now trying to be defensive and refute what I just shared with you.

[00:34:36] Tara Landes: The best thing you can you, in some ways you probably are being a bit defensive, honestly. Let's. Just call it what it is. We have egos, all of us, so, but yes, just frame it, just whatever you're thinking. Say that thing. So I want to ask some clarifying questions if they don't accept that these are clarifying questions at face value.

[00:34:56] There's not a lot you can do about that. But just say, I would like to, [00:35:00] I, I need to, I want to understand better. I appreciate that you are giving me this feedback and I really, I want to treat it with the value that I think is there. Can I ask some further questions and you get your clarifying questions and then I have a lot to think about this.

[00:35:17] I appreciate this. This was helpful to me. I will come back to you with with my thoughts, but I have to think about it right now.

[00:35:25] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Yeah, I I'm a huge fan of Chris Foss and Black Swan Method and it never split the difference. It's just such a game changer of a book. Between that and Coaching Habit are like, I. Just canon for me now on communication really have transformed how I communicate. Probably more so than the thousands of dollars spent on my degree.

[00:35:48] But again, different episode for another day. The phrases of the it, Hey, it sounds it, looks like, it, seems can be great ways to get those clear. [00:36:00] Get clarity without saying you were saying this, that sort of thing. Because again, you're always playing for the next conversation and you wanna build equity and I.

[00:36:12] Into the relationship and 'cause you want another at bat because maybe this person's opinion re really does matter to you and you really value it and you wanna make sure that you create a as I heard someone say, again, we're going back to parenting. But that well worn path.

[00:36:27] Because, yeah I want you to keep traveling this direction.

[00:36:30] Whenever you see something, just like terrorism, when you see something, say something. I want you to come back to me and talk to me. Now, let's say someone's received feedback, they got some clarity so that they could really understand process. They set the expectation for a feedback loop.

[00:36:46] Are there any practices that you have found helpful or that you teach clients or people on? Just a, an effective and efficient way to process feedback that someone's given them so that they can really see, [00:37:00] is this something for me? Am I willing to interrogate, my reality? Do I want to apply it?

[00:37:06] Do I need to apply everything all at once? Do you have a process like that you found helpful?

[00:37:11] Tara Landes: I don't have a process per se, and I think if it's important feedback often I. It's shower work. And what I mean by that is we have great ideas in the shower and you can't bill people for that time. At least not in my profession. But often that's where the best thinking I. Happens.

[00:37:33] And so I think you put a pin in it and you spend some shower time on it where you're just thinking, okay, what does this really mean and how can I apply it? And then when you go back to the person and say, this is what I took away, this is what I understood, this, however you frame it they may spark even further con thoughts and conversation as a result of you going back and explaining what you did or what you thought or how you felt.

[00:37:58] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Like maybe. [00:38:00] Them getting it out loud and then has given them time to pro, maybe they had their own shower thoughts about it. Oh wow, that was a really good clarifying question. I hadn't even thought about that. And when you close the loop, they may go, Hey, I've also had new thoughts

[00:38:17] Tara Landes: Yeah.

[00:38:17] Kenny Lange: Here's something to add into the mix.

[00:38:19] And now the initial discomfort maybe is gone. We can just keep moving down this path together. And now it is that co-creating mutual growth

[00:38:28] Tara Landes: Yeah we're on the same team now. We're on the same team. We're both working toward the

[00:38:33] Kenny Lange: Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. I. There's a lot, man. There's a lot more to dig into this. And but at some point we, we can't just talk for three hours. I'm not Joe Rogan. Okay. Like I still have hair on the top of my head, so, um, well, uh. tara if, if somebody's listened to this and they go, you know what you're right.

[00:38:55] And maybe I've got a review or something coming up. What is the first step someone can [00:39:00] take in the next 24 hours? Li spending little to no money to become a better receiver of feedback.

[00:39:07] Tara Landes: They can practice. So pick something that you're good at, that you know you're good at, and go ask someone for advice on how you can be better. You're gonna your ego isn't gonna get in trouble there because you're, you're good at the thing. And just ask somebody that you think would know for the advice, consider it, shower on it, and go back to that person and let them know what you've done with it.

[00:39:32] Kenny Lange: I love it. I feel like at some point you should have a book that's just called Shower on it.

[00:39:36] Tara Landes: Yeah.

[00:39:37] Kenny Lange: The a cleaner, healthier way to process information. Something like that. I'll write the forward.

[00:39:44] Tara Landes: thank you for the advice. I'll think about that book.

[00:39:47] Kenny Lange: Please come back around. We're gonna close the loop on a second episode. That's how we're gonna keep doing this. Well, Tara, thank you so much for spending some time and dropping some wisdom on me and the listeners. If somebody said, Hey, I [00:40:00] really like this this terror lady, she's got something.

[00:40:02] I wanna know more about her work, what she's doing, how she's helping people. Where would you send that?

[00:40:07] Tara Landes: I would send them to the website, www dot bell Rock, B-E-L-L-R-O-C k.ca. We've got tons of free valuable information for managers and leaders to operate their businesses there.

[00:40:20] Kenny Lange: Awesome. Well, I hope everybody will go and check that out. And then we also will have your LinkedIn linked up so you can go and connect with Tara, follow her, like share review. Speaking of which. Go, like share rate, review this podcast. I do this not because I'm getting rich off of it. I make no money off of this really.

[00:40:41] Tara's not making any money. I didn't pay her to be here. It is just out of the kindness of her heart 'cause she's a good human. But really I wanna have these conversations to help people like you, leaders like you who are growing and trying to do better and do good in the world and do well.

[00:40:56] And your interaction with the content can mean more [00:41:00] people stumble across it and hear a conversation that could unlock their next step. And that's really a free and easy way for you to pay it forward and help somebody else, a fellow traveler on the road. Of leadership that was as narrative as I can get today.

[00:41:14] I'm gonna go and take a nap after that, but until next time, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead. We'll see you.