How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Sheila Rondeau [00:00:00]:
Salespeople don't need to put on a show. You don't need to sell. What you need to be is authentic and show what you solve for. And when you do that, the right people will find you.

Kenny Lange [00:00:19]:
Welcome to the how leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways. Used to think. I'm your host, Kenny Lange, and with me today is Sheila Rondo. She is the CEO of MogXP, which stands for marketing operations group Experiential. I know I've already piqued your interest. She is a trailblazer in the field of experiential and alternative marketing. With the laser focus on operations and logistics. Sheila and her team of marketing operations experts are revolutionizing the industry by increasing customer interactions.

Kenny Lange [00:00:54]:
It's true. She's not making it up. She's told me about what she's done, and it's really cool. Drawing upon their diverse backgrounds and expertise, they provide invaluable experience, implement best practices, and offer innovative solutions to their clients. Welcome to the show, Sheila.

Sheila Rondeau [00:01:11]:
Thanks, Kenny.

Kenny Lange [00:01:13]:
I am excited to have you here, and I would love to know what is on your mind.

Sheila Rondeau [00:01:19]:
For me, it's always about business growth. How do we do things differently? How do we grow businesses and how do we disrupt the marketplace, which I love.

Kenny Lange [00:01:33]:
And there's a lot of people who throw those words around. I don't think, based on our short interactions, I don't think you say those words carelessly. But I am curious, being that you do have a great tenure in this space, which most marketing people cannot say. Right? Like marketing has a high churn and high failure rate, and you've beaten those. What have you seen be the current thinking, or what has been the prevailing wisdom that you see that is ripe for disruption?

Sheila Rondeau [00:02:07]:
So most companies think creative is everything, and I would argue that it is not. You can have the prettiest pictures. You can have the prettiest ads. And my analogy will always be Super bowl ads where you watch commercials and the following day you are telling your friends about all these cool ads and which one's your favorite, and they ask you which brand it was, and you can't remember. They lost.

Kenny Lange [00:02:41]:
You hear that? People are dropping millions. Okay? And obviously we love those commercials. I mean, I do have one that was from late 90s Budweiser, though I don't know why that stuck in my head. It's part of my childhood now. But if they're great, the creative was fantastic. It engaged us. We laughed. We didn't say, okay, whatever commercial is on.

Kenny Lange [00:03:10]:
I'm going to go to bathroom, grab snacks, do whatever. I actually sat and you kept my attention. If you're a believer in the attention economy, that's gold, right? So what are they missing? If they got the engagement part right, which admittedly is really hard considering the number of marketing messages, I think north of 3000 a day. If they got that part right, what is it that they're missing if the creative isn't everything?

Sheila Rondeau [00:03:36]:
Authenticity. It has to be true to your brand. You have to have that authenticity for it to be natural to your brand. For someone to remember it, it needs to connect with your brand. Comedy for a brand that isn't funny doesn't make sense. Something that is really heartfelt when the brand is so tongue in cheek doesn't make sense. It has to match. It has to be authentic to who you are as a company, as a brand, and how you speak.

Kenny Lange [00:04:14]:
Yeah, hearing that is one of those things that intuitively that makes a ton of sense. But you have these multibillion dollar brands. Obviously the price of airtime, I think, keeps going up for a 32nd spot right into the multimillion dollars now, minimum. These brands have spent a small fortune in understanding their brand identity and their brand voice. Why are they missing it? And I think the follow up is what can smaller businesses, those of us who aren't in the stratosphere of a Coca Cola or Anheuser bush or whatever, what can we take away from that? If they're missing the boat and we may feel like, I don't have the resources to do that.

Sheila Rondeau [00:05:11]:
So they're missing it because they look at what is cool for the day or what is leading, what is trending instead of what they know and who they are. When brands then get behind something, they forget who brought them to the party. If you look all at the controversy right now about brands that are being boycotted because they have gotten away from who brought them to the party, they forget who their core demographic are. They forget how they've spoken to these people in the past, and all of a sudden get on bandwagons and you have brand managers who come and go and they don't understand the history of the brand and they lose the voice. So as a small business, as a medium sized business, when you don't have those big budgets and you don't have the checks and balances in place, it's even easier to do that because you're going through that anxiety of building a brand, building a business, and always needing to look at how do I make think work. What do I need to do differently? And they step away from, okay, let's try this. And it becomes that shotgun approach instead of that sniper. And what people need to remember is that there is enough business to do in think world that you will find where you need to be.

Sheila Rondeau [00:06:50]:
If you are authentic to who you are, people will find you. Salespeople don't need to put on a show. You don't need to sell. What you need to be is authentic and show what you solve for. And when you do that, the right people will find you.

Kenny Lange [00:07:13]:
Everybody just rewind and replay that. I think if you get nothing else, like, that's some gold right there. I think then for smaller businesses, right as they're trying to figure it out and maybe they don't have 100 year history. You mentioned understanding the history, and I think that's spot on. If, say, they don't have that long history, they're sort of creating it in today. How do they go about establishing that or thinking about it? Because I forgot what somebody said about a progression of trying to figure out your voice. I think it was probably like a comedian or a singer. Somebody in the arts is you start out by imitating first.

Kenny Lange [00:08:05]:
Just kind of like trying on clothes, right? Like, I'll try this voice on, I'll try this style on. I'll try this approach on until hopefully you find it. But I've seen more and more people struggling to find it, and it just contributes to the noise in the marketplace. How are you thinking about and advising people to find their authentic voice and brand style when there are so many flavor of the month, flavor of the year type approaches out there? And sometimes those seem to strike oil for a moment.

Sheila Rondeau [00:08:46]:
I think the first thing an organization needs to do is figure out what their values are, what are their must dos and won't dos. Once you've put those bumpers in place, then it's much easier to figure out, okay, is it comedy? Is it sarcasm? Is it being true to heart? Is it causes? What are those things that you as a group? Very often it's the personality of the leader of that core leaders that brings everybody in and the one everyone follows. And you'd like to say it's the CEO. It's not always. Sometimes it is just an extremely charismatic and strong leader who rallies the troops to move things forward. Once you do that, then you look at your message points. What do you solve for? How do you articulate it? And my next rule is, if you can't explain it, they won't buy it. So explain it in a way that your mother knows what you do and what you offer.

Sheila Rondeau [00:09:58]:
You need to make sure that the janitor, the receptionist, your salespeople, and your executives all use the same verbiage. And if not everyone in the organization can say it authentically, then it is not authentic to the organization.

Kenny Lange [00:10:21]:
That's really good. It reminds me of why it's called branding. Literally, you and I are in Texas, and so there's probably cattle not too far from where we are at any given moment. But I heard someone say that when you can't have, or you don't have everybody from CEO down to janitorial and part time staff, if they can't all say the same thing, if they say something different, it would be like a rancher taking one brand, sticking it on, taking another one on top, taking another one on top, and very quickly, you have no idea what that brand is. You've lost it. And it doesn't take much for that to be lost. What I'm hearing you say is, if you can get everybody to have the same brand, well, now, suddenly there's no confusion to them and the marketplace, because everybody, from the top to the bottom, is a voice for the organization in the marketplace. Is that fair to say?

Sheila Rondeau [00:11:31]:
Absolutely. Now, people may use different words because some are more fluent than others with how it flows and what feels right in how they say it. But the meaning has to be the same. The core and the value of what the belief is and what the offering has to be the same, and it needs to be in the same voice.

Kenny Lange [00:11:55]:
How do you distinguish values from voice? Because with the work I do, I come across a lot of people who, they have values. Heck, they may have them painted up on the walls or something else. And that's all well and good. And I usually tell people we need to bring them off the walls and into reality. But how do you transform values into voice that can be actively used?

Sheila Rondeau [00:12:25]:
So the first thing is you have to believe in your values, and everybody has to be on board, which means if somebody does not meet your values, they don't belong in your organization. Sorry. They can be a great salesperson, but if they don't carry the company values, bye bye. You can't be there, because you have to have the values, and everyone there needs to get to it. If at a point that you don't feel like your values truly are your values anymore, you have to reexamine them and readjust. And everybody needs to decide that that's where they are. And in doing that, then what do you stand for? And what you stand for very easily takes you to where your voice is. So think about a charity.

Sheila Rondeau [00:13:14]:
If you want to give to a charity, you give to a charity with your heart and your money and your time. So which of those and which do you lead with? When an organization wants to decide what their values are, think about the charities that they want to give to and how they would give. That's a great indicator of what your values are. And so when I talk to people about things like cause marketing, I pick a brand and a charity that match one another. So they need to be the same size. Are they both regional? Are they both local? Are they both national? Are they blue collar or white collar? Do they focus on children? Do they focus on women? Do they focus on veterans? What does that look like? That helps you find some of your values, but it also helps you with your messaging, and it helps you find your voice. It's a great exercise.

Kenny Lange [00:14:15]:
This sounds like I probably need to replay that and think through that because I'm currently, as of this recording, I'm trying to go through and figure out my own voice just because of what I do is inherently, like, selling me. Right. I have tools and processes, but I'm trying to figure out, well, how do I sound? But in organizations, say they're already established. They have teams of people, dozens, maybe hundreds. How do you talk about having a unified brand voice but also allow for sort of the diversity of expression? And I'm not talking about Dei like diversity, but I'm just saying everybody comes with their own flavor of that brand. Right. And that's part of what can make a really beautiful, amazing company. Right.

Kenny Lange [00:15:08]:
Is these different perspectives, but with a shared goal or mission. How do you talk to people and leaders about allowing for that expression without it muddying the waters?

Sheila Rondeau [00:15:22]:
Okay. My example for that is, in every interview I do, one of the questions I ask is, can you tell me I'm wrong? So my thought is, I need people I can count on. I don't want them to tell me what I want to hear. I need them to tell me what I need to hear. So if leadership is open to hearing ideas, then organizations change together, not apart.

Kenny Lange [00:15:58]:
Interesting. Because the C suite or the executives, they may be the ones doing the final decision making, but if they can hear from the variety of voices that they're responsible and accountable to, then you get that voice. That diversity included in the decision making, even if it's staying focused.

Sheila Rondeau [00:16:19]:
Yes.

Kenny Lange [00:16:19]:
I love that. I've even heard of some companies assigning a dissenting voice in meetings to ensure that there's always an opposing view. Now, obviously, they're not telling, like, hey, you're assigned to be the jerk in the jack wagon in the meeting. That's not what they're saying. But to be able to say, we need to make sure that we're not having groupthink or being excluding other voices. If somebody has to come up with an opposing view to make sure that they don't get off kilter.

Sheila Rondeau [00:16:52]:
We do risk meetings before we put together major proposals. We look at the program we're going to propose and we walk through it and have a risk assessment. Where are the strengths? Where are the weaknesses? What could happen? What are the catastrophes that could happen? When you're looking at events, anything that is live, if you're doing pr stunts, if you're doing pop ups, if you're doing concert tours, whatever it is, you have elements, you have equipment, you have all of these uncontainable things that can happen. And we go through them and bulletproof them so that we look for the what ifs and we actually do the math behind it. Like, we figure out how many people are going to walk through our event site before you do it, and then you can say, well, will the equipment we're looking at actually hold up for that? What areas are we going? So, let's look. The weather forecast or the weather for the last 100 years in the locations we're going to. And as crazy as it sounds, what we've learned is mobile tours fly like the birds, so you start in certain places based on the time. And all of that sounds crazy, but it's true to our brand.

Sheila Rondeau [00:18:19]:
We are thinkers, we are problem solvers, but we are also mathematicians, which is something that nobody ever claims to be in marketing.

Kenny Lange [00:18:28]:
That's me, right? I love that. I mean, some are saying that they like analytics. I think some are just. They like the prettiness of the reports, but they're usually not going so far as to say mathematicians. So I love that. I think you should maybe have like an abacus or something in your meetings. That would be fantastic, actually.

Sheila Rondeau [00:18:48]:
What? I look at it as a wall of levers. So you pull the levers to get the right blend and the right mix, and if you pull one off too much, then it messes everything else up and you got to rebalance. So you should be able to do a marketing program by doing the math ahead of time and being able to tell your client what you're going to deliver before they invest. And so that's one of those things that we are true to our brand is we want to make sure that we do the math up front. We take the risk out of it. So other brands might be better performance, it might know, think of a brand. So UPS was delivery and trusting in brown for other companies, the post office, it's the wind in the snow, in the sleet and the rain. We're going to deliver.

Sheila Rondeau [00:19:48]:
Okay, so you look at and I'm going to pick on the post office. They no longer deliver under those conditions. Well, guess what? They're struggling. They're no longer true to their brand.

Kenny Lange [00:20:00]:
Yeah. Wow. And that's appropriate because we're coming up on Christmas season and I know that they'll be hitting it hard here soon on the commercials. So if someone feels like, hey, I've got my values and I believe that they're true and I think they're authentic. When people go to express it and they maybe go through that charity exercise and they start thinking, like, where would we match up and how do we connect with our people? If you're someone who is small and maybe I can't afford the Sheila Rondo's of the world, right? And I'm just trying to sit and think, and maybe I have a few close friends. Maybe my company is only five people in size and I'm getting started. What are some tests or some ways that I can go to the marketplace and see, hey, is this going to resonate with my audience? Because one of the things I struggled sometimes I will personally struggle with and have seen other brands in my marketing career was, it felt very true to them. But the audience that they said that they really wanted to connect with, it didn't connect as well with that group that they said, okay, well, they have the problems, they have the money, they have this.

Kenny Lange [00:21:32]:
So the audience is being authentic. We're being authentic, and it's just like we're not meeting up. How do you help reconcile that? If you feel like, I want to help this group of people, but my style, my approach, my voice doesn't seem to resonate with those people. I think I'm called to help and serve and whatever.

Sheila Rondeau [00:21:57]:
So the question is, do you have the right offering? So does it do what it's supposed to do? Is there a need? Do you solve for a problem? And once you do all of that, look at your messaging and then you look at the points of relevancy. So where do you meet these people that they are most likely willing and open to hearing your message? Where are our points of engagement. And that's where you need to be. So for some demographics, it's online. For others, it is in person. For others, it is at the places that they love the most. It might be at a concert, it might be at a sporting event. So what are those things and where can you meet them? In common ground where they are open to listening to your message and engaging with you.

Sheila Rondeau [00:22:57]:
And that's the exercise you take them through.

Kenny Lange [00:23:00]:
Got you. It sounds like you're saying that if, for instance, you have questions about whether or not your particular, your brand voice will resonate with this audience, is a leveler or way to get in is maybe change the medium with where you're communicating mean not to go all was it Marshall McLuhan said, the medium is the message? I don't know if I fully agree with that. I do think it helps. But are you saying that maybe it's not that people don't resonate with your message, it's maybe the format or the environment to which they're being exposed to? It could change things for you and maybe you've gotten the voice right, so don't quit on it just yet.

Sheila Rondeau [00:23:48]:
Yes, I think you have to figure out if you have the right message, but also, where are you delivering that message? So there is such a variety of places and tactics that you can use. So you look at things like, is it email, is it text, is it cold calling, is it digital? But is it events, is it trade shows, sponsorships, sports, music, all of those things. Is it a surprise and delight? Is it pr? All of those are tactics. And what you have to do is figure out where your product is relevant to the people who are most likely to buy it. So you look at the day in the life of what you would hope to be one of your consumers. What does their day look like, and at what point would you be intersecting their life, where you can show them that you add value to their lives and that you solve a problem for them?

Kenny Lange [00:24:59]:
Right. What if maybe the message is untested? And I think what I hear you saying is once you feel true to your values, your voice, maybe hold that with a bit more of a closed hand, but hold tactics with an open hand, because some people get very focused on, well, this is what the latest report or this person we respect in our industry says, oh, you got to do conferences or you've got to be doing webinars and launch events, and you've got to do this. And people get more sold on tactics than they do on their own brand. I had to deal with that a lot because people would come to me and say, oh, it's all the SEO. It's SEO all day. And I was like, okay, maybe, but is that where people are buying, like, are they Google searching for this? I mean, maybe they are. I mean, there's a lot of data behind that, but they were sold on. I've got to improve this.

Kenny Lange [00:26:03]:
When I would say, well, you have a physical presence and is that where you do most of your sales? And you're like, yeah, okay, well, then we need to talk about that and how do you amplify and maybe surround that experience? We can work on the SEO, but let's not major in the minors. And I feel like that's maybe a bit of what I'm hearing.

Sheila Rondeau [00:26:21]:
You say, absolutely, tactics should change and as your brand changes, they will. But a perfect example of it is I had a client come to me years ago who just knew they wanted to do a sampling program. We looked at what their objectives were and we looked at their budget and how they wanted to sample it. Which, how do they want to sample it? In order to be authentic to their brand. And mathematically it didn't work. It just didn't get them to their goals. And so instead we gave them a completely different tactic. I said, okay, let's not look at the sampling side of it, which is near and dear to my heart.

Sheila Rondeau [00:27:03]:
But instead let's do cedar videos because the demographic you're looking for tends to be on YouTube a ton and tends to be digital. So let's do fun, quirky videos because that's also true to your brand. And we went to Second City in Chicago and had them create scripts and we did fun videos and it allowed us to do what we wanted to do.

Kenny Lange [00:27:32]:
Wow. Yeah. So it sounds like we should. Everybody, especially if you're running a business, you should be thinking, not necessarily. I don't want to say just outside the box, like, that's a little cliched, but maybe don't be so locked in on the things you think you're supposed to be doing or what everybody else has done, because if you do what everybody else does, you're going to get what everybody else has. Right. And maybe that's not the right thing for your brand or your business.

Sheila Rondeau [00:28:03]:
Yeah, that's why we talk about disruption. So what we want to look at is who is your demographic, what is your message to them and when are they open to hearing it? So we know that a younger demographic prefer to find your brand or to be referred to your brand by other people. They don't want you to market to them. You can send them emails all day long, they're not going to read them, they don't care. You can push ads to them and so on, they're not. Instead, you need to let them find you and you need to speak to them often and for very short periods of time. The older your demographic is, the more they want to meet you face to face for a longer period of time, and you don't need to see them as often.

Kenny Lange [00:28:50]:
Got you. That sounds like my group of people. So one of the things you mentioned was earlier was brands trying out things that really went against their base. And like you said, over the last probably twelve to 18 months, there's been numerous large brands that have attempted this and really alienated their core audience. Where do you find a place for brands to mature? Let's say, hey, we were rooted in this. And just like you and I, brands and organizations are really no different than people, right? They grow up, they evolve, they mature. Maybe they don't get off of their core, but the expression is a little different. How do you help brands navigate what is maturing the brand, the voice evolving that and what is just like going off the deep end and taking a right, like you're Michael Scott on the office.

Kenny Lange [00:29:52]:
You took a right off a bridge into the pond because the GPS said go right.

Sheila Rondeau [00:29:58]:
So I think a lot of that has to do with your communications. It's about dialogue with your consumers. So we have so many ways to have communications. You also have to remember who brought you to the party. The person who yells the loudest is very often wrong. So what you want to look at is there is an opportunity to communicate with your consumers. You have to remember who brought you, how they found you, why they buy from you, what you solve for. And if you stay true to those, you can have open, honest communication with them.

Sheila Rondeau [00:30:44]:
And don't get bullied. There are conversations you should just stay out of because you can't make everyone happy. You can do the right things for the right reasons. Talk about your reasons and why.

Kenny Lange [00:31:00]:
Okay, got you. So it's really, besides even what you mentioned before, the diversity of voices within the organization to make sure that we're going together, but we're taking other people into consideration, is bringing the customer and the clients that have, like you said, brought you to the party have stuck with you, right? Have brand loyalty is bringing them into that conversation as well. And maybe asking some questions or sharing your reasons. Hey, we really feel that our brand should evolve into this or start expressing this view or sound like this because of XYZ and getting that feedback from them and finding a way to incorporate that viewpoint doesn't mean you can't go there. Maybe go there at your own risk, but go there, but bring them along with you, is what I hear you say.

Sheila Rondeau [00:31:54]:
The perfect example? The brand that does it like no one else does it is Ben and Jerry's. They have been unapologetic. You always know they're political. Not only their political, their climate views. Anything and everything on their heart they wear on their sleeve. And so they believe in their sourcing, they believe in their hiring model, they believe in where they support all of those things, and they are unapologetic. But we have known it from the day they started. They believe with all their heart, and they put it out there.

Sheila Rondeau [00:32:44]:
And if you buy their brand, you know their brand, you can look at the packaging and it tells you, yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:32:50]:
What if somebody says, hey, I think maybe that's more true. Maybe we started imitating somebody and we got market share. By imitating, right? Because it's hard to walk away from money. Even if that money was attached to something you're not. Right. Like, you imitated somebody else. They liked your imitation. So you got boatloads of money, and it's helped you create security financially for yourself and others and your employees.

Kenny Lange [00:33:20]:
But you know, deep down, that's not who we are. That's not who I am. Eventually the truth comes out. Right. Like it's going to be expressed. How do you advise people to make that transition when really they do need to come into a more authentic version of their voice? But maybe it's not what they're best known for, but the long term viability of their business probably depends on them getting to that authentic voice. Otherwise, they're just constantly imitating. Or you as a leader have to decide, well, we need somebody who can lead the company in that way, and I'm going to have to leave.

Kenny Lange [00:34:00]:
Like you said, if you have a salesperson who can sell ice cubes to Eskimos but doesn't carry the culture and the values, they got to go. But what if I'm the senior most leader, maybe even the founder, and it doesn't represent me and feel authentic, how do you advise those individuals?

Sheila Rondeau [00:34:16]:
So you have to make some difficult choices, because organizations don't survive when they are, excuse the term, but like bipolar. I mean, you're saying one thing, you're doing something else. You. You go back and forth at a certain point you have to figure out who you are and what you represent. You also have to look at how you're positioned in the market. There is a difference between leading a private organization and leading an organization where you have financial responsibilities to others. When you are a publicly traded company, you don't get to do it based on your political views. You have a financial obligation.

Sheila Rondeau [00:35:07]:
So perfect example is Anheuser Bush. So you look at Anheuser Bush had always been led by Budweiser. Budweiser is blue collar. Roll up your sleeve. Red, white and blue, american flag, NASCAR, that whole arena. Bud light was positioned to be much more diverse. They have always supported the LBGTQ community overall. They always supported pride events.

Sheila Rondeau [00:35:46]:
They supported a lot of different communities. They were much more focused on women and athletes. And it was just a different feel than Budweiser. Anheuser Bush had a horrible position to be in when their brand that was meant to be the much more diversive brand that included many more people, but wasn't what brought them to the party, then became the lead brand. And they had to look at the organization as a whole and a brand manager made that decision for them versus they as an organization looking at what was required. It's not easy conversations. If I had a magic wand and I could fix it for them, I would. But this is something that they should have spent time and energy and messaging to work through instead of just immediately taking a stance on something that really took them so far from not only their core demographic, but their stockholders.

Kenny Lange [00:37:09]:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because like you said, there's a financial or fiduciary responsibility not just to the employees of the brand and the company like you would in a private, but typically you have a board that you need to keep happy, but you also have all these shareholders that have a financial stake in the company and it doing well. And when you make a radical turn of any kind, whether the kind Anheuser Bush made or any others have made, then they pay the price and you will be held accountable in some way, shape or form. Right. It usually does not come back to you in a great way, but usually somebody's getting fired, if nothing else, just to make a show. It helps on the optics that we blame somebody.

Kenny Lange [00:38:09]:
Right. And we're going to correct the ship. Well, Sheila, you've shared a ton of wisdom, and I probably have my own private questions about my own brand that I want to just keep asking you, but it's probably not valuable to the rest of the audience. But if somebody's thinking through this and maybe they're in a similar place that I am, is just really trying to get to that clarity of what is my point of view, what is my brand voice and how and where do I connect with this audience so that it's authentic and I'm helping them. They're getting the maximum value. If they were to take a baby step in the next 24 hours, what does that baby step look like and where do they get started?

Sheila Rondeau [00:38:57]:
I think the first thing people need to do is examine. They need to spend some time putting together their business plan, look at their goals and objectives. You look at your messaging, but that first baby step is ask yourself who you are, what you stand for, and who brought you to the party. What do you solve for? If you ask yourself those questions, you start developing your brand.

Kenny Lange [00:39:28]:
I love that. Well, Sheila, if people want to know more about you, your operation, your company, and everything that you're doing, where would you send them?

Sheila Rondeau [00:39:39]:
My website, mogxp.com, or my LinkedIn page.

Kenny Lange [00:39:45]:
And we will link that. Also, we're going to link up the YouTube channel as well because I'm sure you've got some wonderful visuals, especially being in the experiential space, but we'll make sure people can connect with you. And so, thank you so much for coming on and helping us get a better understanding of how we can disrupt the marketplace with an authentic voice and authentic brand for everybody listening. Until next time, remember, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead. We'll see you next time.

Sheila Rondeau [00:40:24]:
Our, our.