How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Michele Krolczyk [00:00:00]:
Look, other team members, this is who you have. This is the personality that you've been dealt with. And unless you want to go get a different job, how do you better work with this person? How do you create a better dynamic from your side of the table?

Kenny Lange [00:00:19]:
Welcome to the how leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Michelle Kralczyk. Michelle is a seasoned entrepreneur with a background ranging from the jungles of corporate America to the odysseys of family business ownership. Passionate about the importance of clarity and direction in the workplace, she has built a consulting practice to help leaders create a compelling vision and then, just as important, execute on it. Welcome to the show, Michelle.

Michele Krolczyk [00:00:53]:
Thank you so much.

Kenny Lange [00:00:53]:
Tell me what is on your mind.

Michele Krolczyk [00:00:55]:
What is on my mind? Just say, Kenny and I know each other because we were system and soul coaches together. And I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know Kenny and his gumption for getting his own practice up and running and his dedication to the same type of work that we both do. But as I was thinking about what to talk about on your podcast, I started thinking about some of the work that I do and some of the meanderings and ponderings that I've had. I have been doing this for eight years, and so I've had the good fortune of working with a variety of teams of all shapes and sizes, from all walks of industry. And there is the pleasure of working with really solid, healthy teams that can make things go quickly, that they're inwardly sound, and others focus, as we often say, in terms of what makes a good leader. They're strong, they can execute quickly, they can pivot. Conversely, I've also worked with a bunch of teams, a variety of teams who I wouldn't say are the healthiest teams. And part of there's an element of what both you and I do when we're working with teams is we're helping create trust by doing team building.

Michele Krolczyk [00:02:04]:
And sometimes I think that my observation is that you can bring in all kinds of tools and assessments. You can do Clifton strengths finder, you can do Colby, you can do the anagram. There's lots and lots of tools and methodologies out there that can help create what I would call self awareness. And yet, there still are some teams that it's just, they just struggle with the team dynamic and thus the trust. And when that trust is missing, I think problem solving everything takes so much longer. So I've been really racking my brain to understand what is the difference? Why are there some teams that can really accelerate, get to the. Be really good at the teamwork and really strong in trust and other teams really struggle with it. And I think that it's the self awareness piece and whether or not someone has the ability to truly be self aware and want to unpack the things that drive them inside a meeting.

Michele Krolczyk [00:03:03]:
So when you're sitting in a meeting, and I don't know if this has ever happened with you, Kenny, but you can tell right away, like the dynamic is for the whole team is being affected by, usually by just one, sometimes two individuals in the room. And no matter how hard you try, because that's our job as coaches, is to ask probing questions and try to get the dynamic to switch up a little bit or suggest, can I have you hang back for a little bit and can I ask you to step up a little bit? And that there are just some people who have a harder time with that. I think that we need to recognize that nothing, everyone has the ability or the desire to become a self aware person.

Kenny Lange [00:03:42]:
Gotcha. First of all, thank you for the kind words. I'll apple cash you $20 like I promise for that. But so it sounds like one. The notion of what's the difference between an okay team and a high performance team has been on your mind, but then you've narrowed that down to the aspect of trust as well as self awareness. Now, are you saying that you suspect self awareness is coming before trust? In a sequence like a lack of self awareness is indicative of a lack of trust?

Michele Krolczyk [00:04:18]:
It can be, but not always. So when I say that there are some people who lack the self awareness or the ability to unpack their stuff, I think that there are personalities, and I see this happen a lot in leadership. And there's a reason for this because these people are drivers in the first place. But I think that there are some individuals who have this maladaptive personality and they're very used to having control. They're very used to having things their own way. They're not used to the team dynamic. I think they want a team dynamic, but at the end of the day, they're not really into the team dynamic. What they really want is to put on the facade of having a team dynamic.

Michele Krolczyk [00:04:57]:
As long as we ultimately do what it is I want.

Kenny Lange [00:05:00]:
Yeah, saying you're interested in a team is socially acceptable, and it also can help you look better. If you say that's what you want, you almost feel the pressure to say that even if that's not ultimately what you prefer, because it creates social capital.

Michele Krolczyk [00:05:15]:
And actually. So going back to self awareness for a second, there are actually leaders that I've met with who think they want to implement some kind of an operating system in their business, which is led by a team. In those conversations, it becomes quite clear that they're not really ready to let go of the reins. They're not really willing to let go of control. They really don't. And I said, you know what? Those businesses can also be very successful. If you want to be the head of the company, the president, the boss, whatever you want to call it, and you want to be the one calling the shots, that can be a very successful business model, but then own it, know it, and every. And that actually takes a lot of pressure off of a lot of people.

Michele Krolczyk [00:05:53]:
However, if you are coming in and you're still that person who wants all of the control, but you're saying that you want to create a team dynamic, and then that doesn't happen, that causes a lot of frustration. So it shuts people down. It makes people pull back. It doesn't create that level of trust. That is what's required. So trying to get those people, I've realized that I've tried to do one on one conversations with people to see if I can get them to realize that their personality, the way they talk to people, the way they handle things, can be not conducive to creating that team environment where all voices are heard and everyone's opinions are important, and you're truly seeking the best answers, not just the answer from the top.

Kenny Lange [00:06:36]:
I want to go back to something you said earlier to connect with what you just said is you said that some people lack self awareness. Totally get it. I think everybody probably had a person or two come to mind. If you're sitting beside them right now, don't elbow them. You said that some people lack the desire to gain self awareness. It's just not of interest to them. And I'm curious to dig into that a little bit more, because, again, it could end up being the same thing of, like, teams. Oh, yeah, we're all for self awareness, but really, you're maybe deep down, you're like, no, I'm not interested in changing.

Kenny Lange [00:07:13]:
I'm just interested in getting what I want, like you mentioned. How does that come into play, especially when you have a business that's reached a certain level, you're gonna have to leverage a team in some way, shape, or form, even if it's not like this huge, like, every voice is heard, but you're still going to need teams to get things done, right. So how do you see the, not only do I lack self awareness, I lack the desire to gain self awareness, show up.

Michele Krolczyk [00:07:40]:
Maybe it's not even. Maybe I want to rephrase the desire piece because I think people can say they desire, and I think people. I think there are certain people who think they're self aware and they're not. And that's where I think things get really sticky really fast. So it's not even a desire. Maybe it's more even like an inability to be able to go deep. There are some people who are truly very insecure and they hide behind that. The show of, again, being in control, the one who's the decision maker.

Michele Krolczyk [00:08:08]:
And it's not that they don't have a team of people who are doing the work, but it's like they still ultimately want to be the decision maker and they still ultimately want to be in charge. So I don't know that it's necessarily desire as it is, much as inability to go very deep. I mean, if you think about Renee Brown as one of my heroes in the world, I just love her work. And she talks a lot about how we all carry around armor with us. And at what point are you able to think about the armor that you're carrying around and whether or not it's serving you? Well, first of all, you have to recognize what is the armor in the first place. And then once you recognize. Yeah, yeah, that's that. Those things are true about me.

Michele Krolczyk [00:08:46]:
How am I going to start thinking about how I dismantle that? How am I going to start thinking about these patterns of behavior that I have that are maybe not serving me like they did in the past? She talks about how not a one of us escapes childhood without layering on a whole lot of armor because it's what you have to do in order to get through childhood. But then when you arrive in your middle adulthood, it's like some of that armor that we've been carrying around for a really long time, that's all it is, is just plain heavy. So how do we set it down? So whether it's Brene Brown's work or you look at the book positive intelligence that talks about saboteurs and those negative ways of until we become aware of them and see them and realize that they're there and push them to the side, that takes work, and not everyone is capable of doing that work. And maybe that's a distinction here is the capability versus desire. Not everybody has that capability.

Kenny Lange [00:09:41]:
Yeah. Or they're trying to bite off way too much. Like they've had some expert who maybe they have done a ton of their work and they're saying, yeah, you've got to become self aware and do X, Y and z and do all this. And you're like, uh, so I gotta be enlightened by tomorrow. And at that point, you're like, why even try one of my favorite things? I know right before we hit record, I was telling you that I'm gonna be working with the team this week, their brand new executive team. And I'll be doing an intro to the enneagram, which I love, has been personally very helpful to me. But a lot of it is founded on the notion of self awareness. Actually, map the nine saboteurs from positive intelligence to the nine Enneagram types, which is fun, but it's the escaping childhood without some armor or trauma we put on that armor.

Kenny Lange [00:10:30]:
And what I would call that armor is personality. We adapt a personality that allows us to survive our childhood and make our way in the world. And to some extent, it works, which is why, in my opinion, and my experience in coaching clients with the enneagram and other things, it is so hard to break out of those things because it's worked. To some degree, it's worked. It's led to your success. And if you're a high level leader, if you're the owner, manager, CEO, whatever of a company, you're like, well, if it ain't broke, you know, sort of thing. I don't know why I got so southern right there, but the. It just bubbles up out of me every now and then.

Kenny Lange [00:11:07]:
I gotta remind people I'm from Texas, wasn't born here, but got here as fast as I could. So it's worked to some extent. Whatever level of success you want to say that you're happy with, your personality has gotten you there, but it will not get you any further, which is why I love the imagery of so many of these assessments, and there's a lot of great ones, and I would love to hear about how you're using. I know strengths finder has been one you've seen a lot of success with amongst others, but a lot of them can put you in a box. Great. I'm a achiever. This, that, the other thing or. And I don't know as much about strengths finder, so you'll correct me if I'm ignorant on something or disc.

Kenny Lange [00:11:45]:
I'm an off the charts d on that, which is always fun when I'm in a group and they're like, oh, so you're the a hole. And I was like, yep, that's me. But they put you in a box. But self awareness for me, and this is where I love the enneagram. And others that take it a step further, is show you the box you're in and how to get out. Right. It's not enough to just say, name my box. It's great.

Kenny Lange [00:12:08]:
Now what? And I'm curious, what are you saying? And the prevailing wisdom in leadership, because if everybody was doing this, you and I would have no reason to have our practices right. If everybody was just on their self awareness journey and doing it well, I'm like, all right, I guess I'll go figure out something else to do. But what is the prevailing wisdom that is keeping people, even though we have access to so many assessments? They're figuring out, they're naming their boxes, they're doing all this stuff, but they're not growing in self awareness or their leadership ability or their ability to harness the power of a team. So what's the thought process that's keeping them stuck?

Michele Krolczyk [00:12:44]:
That's a multi pronged answer, I think. I think anytime I do an assessment with a team. So you're right. I do use Clifton strengths finder as one of the assessment tools that I really love, but it's just knowing something is helpful, but applying it is completely different. I think early on in my practice, I used to only think about the team. I would bring the team together, we would share each other's results and only talk about it from a team perspective. I think now it's really important, and this is sometimes really a matter of time and budget for a lot of people. But it's really important to do some one on one coaching with each of the people in the room.

Michele Krolczyk [00:13:20]:
It allows you as a coach to ask a little deeper questions on a more personal level and not in the team setting to talk about learning people. And again, I'm talking specifically about Clifton strengths right now. But telling people, helping people understand how they can lean into their strengths to overcome challenges and obstacles is not always something that you can just do in the team setting. So I think giving yourself the opportunity to do some one on one coaching and being able to talk about some specific examples that there's not really time in the team setting to do, I think is critical. And, yeah, I said I can give you an assessment once a month if you want, because there's so many out there and there's a lot, and they're all really great, but if all you're going to do is be like, oh, that's really interesting, and not do anything about that, then it's, you're not going to get the full advantage of it for sure.

Kenny Lange [00:14:06]:
Exactly. Yeah. So you would advise a leader that if they've, whether they've taken an assessment as part of a team exercise or something in their workplace, or they've just been curious on their own, that it might be helpful to follow that up with a conversation or two. Or if they see the need and have the means to pursue maybe some short term coaching to really figure out, how do I put this into place to make different decisions now that I have this awareness of my wiring or my strengths or specific challenges?

Michele Krolczyk [00:14:44]:
Yes. But I go back to the question posed at the beginning of this podcast. The thing that's been on my mind is realizing think that the reason I'm noticing and thinking about it more is because I've been doing this long enough that I'm not just looking at five different teams, I'm looking at dozens of different teams. And the makeup of those teams and the executives on them and the patterns that I'm seeing and the. That we just have to accept. And I say this because of the other people on a team that have to deal with these one or two individuals that are on their team or within their workplace. It's not just always the executive leadership team that there are some people who just can't go any deeper than wherever they are. I was introduced to a book called it's not you, it's written by Doctor Ramani, and she's just a fantastic researcher.

Michele Krolczyk [00:15:39]:
She had recently come out with this book and it's this acceptance to know that. And again, we're talking about a spectrum. We're not talking about you either are or you're nothing spectrum of people who have that maladaptive personality that doesn't necessarily want to play nice in the sandbox. And there's got to be this radical acceptance that that is what they're going to be, that is all you're going to get. And so if I can't work one on one with someone to gain, go a little bit deeper and gain that self awareness that they have the ability to start thinking about what changes they could potentially make for the betterment of the team and the betterment of their company, then the other way to come at it then is look other team members. This is who you have. Obviously, you can't just say this in the middle of a team meeting, but to help them understand, like if this is the personality that you've been dealt with and unless you want to go get a different job, how do you better work with this person? How do you create a better dynamic from your side of table?

Kenny Lange [00:16:40]:
Do you find that part of that is helping people disconnect? Because you mentioned leaders may have either been handed a lot of control of certain responsibilities, people, teams, things like that. They're used to having a measure of control that you're having to help leaders unlearn some of those controlling tendencies because they're so used to. I can just dictate the terms, the environment, the people and the actions and everything, and really making peace with the fact that I'm not in control of this other person, but I can direct all that energy towards myself. Is that something you feel or noticing that you're having to do quite often in some of these teams that maybe are struggling more with trust or cohesiveness?

Michele Krolczyk [00:17:28]:
Again, I think that the experience over the years has taught me to ask better questions. Especially if a new team is coming to me about working together, I can ask better questions. And one of the questions they ask, or if they haven't asked, I'll ask it for them is, is when doesn't this work? When does putting together all of the components of an operating system, EOS or system and soul, when doesn't it work? And for me, the answer is quite simple. It doesn't work. If I can't get you to loosen the grip. If you're going to hold on tight, then you know what? I can work with you one on one to be an effective leader that holds on tight. I can try and attempt that, but that's not what I'm here to do. What I'm here to do is to help you build a team of people.

Michele Krolczyk [00:18:09]:
Letting go of those reins and letting go of some of that control and helping them loosen that grip isn't something they're ready for, then that's okay. That's a perfectly acceptable answer. And it doesn't make you a bad leader, it doesn't make you a bad person, it doesn't make you dumb. It just means that you're not ready to do that until that day comes where you're ready to truly build a team of people so that you don't have to be looked at for every decision. That's a big factor in whether or not you're going to see success with an operating system.

Kenny Lange [00:18:38]:
Like the first step, not to like go all aa on this, but I mean, the first step, I would think to any improvement or anything is admitting where you're at. Good, bad and ugly. I'm not ready to let go of this. Okay, but at least like you were saying earlier is at least you can own that. That's where you're at right now. But don't say you want one thing when you really don't. And at least when you say exactly where you're at, there's some integrity and some relief that can come from that. Because now we can say, if you're not ready, that's okay, let's own that and we can move forward from here as quickly as you are comfortable.

Kenny Lange [00:19:22]:
Because the one thing I have learned, because I was one of those control freaks, as a matter of fact, now I've become accredited to use the enneagram. They use some different language around each of the numbers. I'm an eight, and so I was called a challenger in a bunch of other literature. And this literature, I'm called the active controller. And I was like, man, that doesn't sound as cool as challenger. Challenger sounds like, yeah, like I'm taking on the man and active controller sounds like I got problems, which I do, but that's not what this podcast is about.

Michele Krolczyk [00:19:53]:
But see, you're self aware. You're self aware.

Kenny Lange [00:19:56]:
I am in that regard. Many thanks to my wife and children for making sure I stay self aware. But the notion of having all of that control, that was difficult for me and in business and especially my first company, I was like, oh, you're going to do this. I'm the smartest guy in the room, which probably tells me I'm in the wrong room. But even with. We could talk about kids trying to control them, you can't. They're wild, wild beasts. And it wasn't until I accepted that I didn't have control over everything.

Kenny Lange [00:20:33]:
I had maybe more control of my own company because I'm the owner and I signed the checks and so you get some measure of control. But when you step outside of there, because I'm a fan of. You don't have leader work. Kinney and husband Kenny and dad Kenny, like, I'm a whole person, right? And I know Brene Brown talks about being wholehearted, right. I love, and I love her work, too, is when I let go of the expectation that I would or should have control over them, I noticed that the relationship became much better. My influence actually expanded and we worked together much better. And I was more at peace. I felt more inwardly sound secure and settled, which is one of the key tenets of inwardly sound once that happened, which felt counterintuitive to me.

Kenny Lange [00:21:19]:
And I'm curious what you've seen, as people have admitted, where they are, but then taken some of those steps towards releasing the grip, because it can be scary.

Michele Krolczyk [00:21:30]:
Yeah, it can be scary. I remember one of the teams that I worked with, president of the company, who was also the owner, said, I feel like I've got. After we. And we'd been working together with, we formed this executive team, this leadership team, and after about a year, and right now I feel like I've got. I own a hot sports car that I don't get to drive like, well, do you want the sports car to go fast or do you want it to go slow? We're enhancing your sports car that will help your sports car go faster. To which he agreed when it was only him who was allowed behind the wheel. It didn't go as fast as when he started helping develop the other people to rise up and help lead the company. I've seen situations where someone in the middle of an implementation of sorts has come to the realization, I am not comfortable asking these seven other people sitting at the table here what they think, because I don't know that I care.

Michele Krolczyk [00:22:23]:
Which is, again, as long as you recognize that is a more acceptable way of existing than when you are that same person and saying, of course I want everybody at the table here. I want to hear all the voices and all the opinions. But then at the end of the day, you see all the heads swivel over and you know that the only decision that really is going to matter, the only opinion that's really going to matter is that leader, owner, founder, whoever it might be. I think there are people that believe that they are doing all those things. One of the problem solving methods that I really love, that I was explaining to someone, is the one three one method. So when someone comes to you with a problem, there are those leaders that we've been talking about here today who just want to give you the answer, what's the problem? Give you the answer. What we should be doing in order to develop the leadership and problem solving skills of the people that report to us or the people that are on our leadership team, is to say, yep, I hear the problem. I want you to go back and I want you to research three viable options and come back with a recommendation on 1311 problem, three options, one decision, and let them run with that decision.

Michele Krolczyk [00:23:27]:
But I think we hold people back a lot when people know people are. Sometimes it's really obvious. And sometimes it's a little less obvious whether or not I have any decision making ability or not.

Kenny Lange [00:23:37]:
It should be common knowledge. Lord knows there's enough LinkedIn post advertising this research, but people having that sort of guided autonomy that people don't want to just be left to their own devices, so to speak, just floundering, figuring out what to do. They would like the autonomy to be able to make decisions. And because one, I think that's humanizing to you hired adults, not children, so treat them as such. I didn't mean for this to turn into a sermon. I just feel passionate about having, being able to make my own decisions. But I have seen that people generally want to make good decisions. They want to do right by the company, they want to do right by their team, they want to do right by the boss.

Kenny Lange [00:24:18]:
But I think sometimes we in leadership can mistake it as they're working against me. I got to do all these countermeasures and tell them exactly what to do because I'm like, wouldn't it be better if you could impart the way that you think, which now we're getting super meta, because that's the point of this whole show, but impart the way that you think into those people so that they could perform at a higher level. Maybe there is something that you have or something about you or your experience that has made you extraordinarily gifted. I'll speak for myself on this, so this may be incriminating. Maybe we need to cut this out of the show. But is, I felt like I, at times, I had done all this work, I had giftedness in being able to study, learn, retain, and activate and act on and execute on those things very quickly. And it allowed me in any organization I was a part of to rise up very quickly and to see great results. And then when I would get a team and I'm, I'm one of these people that it's taken me a while to feel like I really do want a team.

Kenny Lange [00:25:21]:
But I was saying I wanted a team, when really I was like, no, just let me do it. I'm better, faster, smarter. And whether or not those things were true, I believed them. And it was hard for me to think if they just don't get it. I just want to be with people who get it. I want to run with other. I'm a thoroughbred. I want to run with other thoroughbreds.

Kenny Lange [00:25:41]:
As Dave Ramsey might say, I don't want to run with donkeys. But it did. It took me a long time to figure out, oh, maybe I'm in this position. One, great, be grateful for it. Two, I now have an immediate opportunity to impart. However God wired me and gifted me into these people. I can show them things, and this isn't in an arrogant, I'm so brilliant, I can share this. But if you're in a position of leadership and you have people reporting to you, you do have a skill set like own.

Kenny Lange [00:26:13]:
That be okay with saying, yes, I am pretty dang talented at whatever it is that we're doing. Couldn't you turn around and say, maybe I can help make you better? Maybe I could. Going back to capacity. Maybe we're matched up. Maybe you're on my team because I'm uniquely qualified to help you increase your capacity at whatever it is that we're doing. I think John Maxwell said, I forget which book, because every time he sneezes, he's got a new book. But he talks about good leaders may grow by addition. Great leaders grow by multiplication.

Kenny Lange [00:26:49]:
They create other great leaders. And I don't know of a better legacy or a better reputation than as someone who is really good at taking people, cultivating them, and then releasing them to be great leaders, because that only builds you up and allows you to go higher in whatever leadership journey you're on. So you don't have to be discredited, because that's the way I felt was like, great, you're talented. Whatever. We've got all these people, you got to just hand it over to the people who didn't do as, didn't work as hard as, you, didn't have the skills you had. And that was very difficult for me to swallow early on until I figured out, oh, actually, at a certain point, my job is to turn around and help develop everybody else. And in doing so, everything else goes much better. I'm more at peace.

Kenny Lange [00:27:39]:
And truth be told, I got more opportunities that I never would have gotten if I was just striving for them myself.

Michele Krolczyk [00:27:45]:
Yes. And I think it goes back to what I was. Maybe I haven't driven this point home quite well, quite enough yet. Is that everything you just described, kenny, is describing someone who is the inwardly sound and others focused person who has the interest of developing other people to rise up in their leadership, to rise up in their positions, to help them do their job as brilliantly as possible. The thing that has been on my mind is that there are people, and a lot of them are in leadership positions because they're driven, they've got charm, they have charisma, they're smart, but they also just possessed such a deep desire for that control that they can't, they are not capable and they think, they think they are wonderful leaders. What they can't see is the damage that's happening around them from some of those behaviors. There's true damage being done to these team members. And so I'm not sure exactly what the whole answer is here.

Michele Krolczyk [00:28:48]:
Cause I can't always access each person on that team one on one. But what I can try and do in a team session is when I recognize that we're dealing with one of these people and you don't know it all the time, immediately. This is after, when you've been working with someone for a very long time and you realize, wow, there isn't going to be a breakthrough here. How do the other people, from their side of the table, how do we help them understand that outside of going and getting a new job someplace else, here's how I can best work with this individual who just isn't going to be able to be anything other than what he or she is. There isn't going to be that brilliant insight. Wow. I have such an opportunity here to impart my wisdom in a way that's not lecturing, but truly being a curious person. As opposed to telling someone, like shifting.

Kenny Lange [00:29:37]:
Where you fall on that tell to ask spectrum is floating more towards the ask and away from the tell.

Michele Krolczyk [00:29:43]:
Yes.

Kenny Lange [00:29:44]:
Which is, by the way, a super simple way to develop people, like you said, asking better questions.

Michele Krolczyk [00:29:51]:
Interestingly, before the pat, when I was looking at LinkedIn this morning, I said, someone posted this and I loved it, you can tell a bully from a leader by how they treat people who disagree with them.

Kenny Lange [00:30:01]:
It's like a Maya Angelou quote. When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Michele Krolczyk [00:30:06]:
Believe them. It's one of my favorite quotes. I love that quote.

Kenny Lange [00:30:09]:
Michelle, before you go, if somebody's sitting here thinking, and I think the tough part about this discussion is exactly what you said a minute ago, they're doing all sorts of damage, but they're not aware of it. That person is probably not listening to this podcast because they think they already know it all. But let's maybe, let's talk to the, to that leader. Maybe they're a senior leader, mid level manager or something like that. They're on their way up. Or maybe they are a senior leader working for an owner, a CEO founder who's not ready to let go. They lack self awareness. They're doing all sorts of damage.

Kenny Lange [00:30:42]:
What is like an initial step that person can take in the next 24 hours, little to no money, to develop their own self awareness, their own sense of being inwardly sound and others focus. Which, by the way, we've mentioned this a few times, and I just want to give credit where credit's due is. It's a book by Tim Spiker called the only leaders worth following. We'll link it in the show notes. It is phenomenal. Tim's a great guy too, by the way. He's got an episode on here, so scroll back to last year and you'll find them. But what is something that leader on the way up who's maybe on the receiving end of a not aware leader that they can do to keep building their own self awareness and capacity so that maybe they can find opportunities outside of that or just be a positive influence on that?

Michele Krolczyk [00:31:31]:
If I understood your question correctly, I would say that if anyone listening to this podcast is asking themselves, wow, is that me? Am I that person who's not self aware? Chances are no. If you're even asking that question, it tells me that you have the ability to say, wow, I better take a step back here and evaluate whether or not I fall into that category or not. You can certainly ask for feedback, but only ask for feedback if you think that people are going to give you honest answers. And that's a whole other ball of wax. There is. Have we created a culture where there's a psychological safety where people can actually do that? I know we've talked about this.

Kenny Lange [00:32:09]:
And if you're going to actually act on it.

Michele Krolczyk [00:32:11]:
Yeah, and if you're act and if you're one of those people who sitting, I don't even know what they are talking about right now. I am completely self aware. I am completely dialed in. Chances are you might not be that person.

Kenny Lange [00:32:22]:
I got some people I need to send this to. They need to increase their self awareness. If you share this with three or more people, you probably need your own help. I don't know, I just may have discouraged people from sharing the episode. But that's okay. We'll let the chips fall where they may.

Michele Krolczyk [00:32:35]:
Now, you mentioned a book already that I think definitely should be on the read list. I think that dare to lead is another great book that people should pull out of their ranks. And then I mentioned the book that doctor Ramani wrote that it's called it's not you, and it's helping people understand and identifying what those behaviors and using maladaptive personality style. What do those behaviors look like and what can I do to affect my ability to handle someone with that that's.

Kenny Lange [00:33:04]:
Phenomenal because I don't think that gets enough attention on how to build the resiliency in handling those people. We have a lot of books about how to transform yourself and make those changes. But to the point we're making here is if you are that person who lacks self awareness, like, you're not picking up that book, but the people who are keenly aware of the damage you're causing, like, how are we helping them continue to develop in the face of the lack of self awareness from certain leaders? So I love that we will link up all of those books. Michelle, thank you so much for your wisdom and your time. And I'm sure we'll have many more topics into the future. But if people want to know more about you and your work and how you're helping people, where would you send them?

Michele Krolczyk [00:33:51]:
They can go to my website, which is mkhdhdeme@michellecrolczyk.com and you can learn more about me there. And there's ways to reach me through that.

Kenny Lange [00:34:02]:
Gotcha. We'll put the LinkedIn in the website. And Michelle is with one l, so that may throw some of you off. And that's okay. And krill check is K R O l C Z Y K. You got it. Wow, look at that. Well, no, I'm reading it.

Kenny Lange [00:34:19]:
Don't give me that much credit. All right, I got it on three different screens over here. But thank you so much. It's always fun to have friends on the show and you've been all, repay the favor and you can send the $20 back to me. But you've been a great help to me in getting off the ground and offering wisdom, advice and guidance and sometimes just telling me that I wasn't crazy or maybe I was just a little crazy in some of my ideas and getting started. So forever grateful for that. If you got benefit or value from this show, number one, yay. Number two, please share.

Kenny Lange [00:34:53]:
Subscribe if I were a goofy youtuber, I'd say smash that subscribe button. But do that. Get this in front of more people. It is a fast, easy and free way to help your fellow leaders by getting this in front of more people. And selfishly, it helps me. And I appreciate that because I want to keep doing this and helping people for as long as I can. But until next time, remember, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead.

Kenny Lange [00:35:19]:
We'll see you.