How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Melissa Winebarger [00:00:00]:
Have you been out to the shop? And I was like, yeah, do you know the guys out there? And I'm like, just the. The idea of, like, they're kind of unreachable. They just want to come to work, get a paycheck, and go home. And I'm like, no, no, no. You've got to believe with me that everybody wants to be known and seen and heard. They are no exception. They are still created in the image of God.

Kenny Lange [00:00:27]:
Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast, a show that transforms you by renewing your mind and new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Melissa Weinbarger. I said that right. I got it right. And I'm. You know what? I might want to end the podcast now because I don't think I can top that. Although I did say a name in Croatian earlier in the year, and I nailed that. And that may have been my pinnacle of success.

Kenny Lange [00:00:51]:
But Melissa is the executive director, the very first executive director, I might add, of the Beyond Business nonprofit organization. She recognizes that most believers feel that they have to separate work from faith. Can I get an amen? Melissa works with Beyond Business, equipping business professionals to live a fully integrated life of faith. God created us for good work. And Melissa helps connect the dots between Sunday worship to Monday work, which is desperately needed. Welcome to the show, Melissa.

Melissa Winebarger [00:01:22]:
Thanks, Kenny. I'm so excited to be here, and I love your energy, and so hopefully I can match that today and just pumped to be a part of the show, honored that you asked me to be on here and share my story.

Kenny Lange [00:01:36]:
So, yeah, it's gonna be awesome. I'm excited about it. I'm excited about a lot of things that you're working on, and I believe we'll get into those things, so. But first, tell me what is on your mind.

Melissa Winebarger [00:01:48]:
Yeah, so that's a big question, and I have lots of things on my mind, so. But I think the biggest thing probably for me right now is just the transition that I'm going through with. With a nonprofit. I've never led a nonprofit before. I have always had one boss and worked for one person or organization, and now I feel like having a board and working for multiple bosses, if you will, and not really. They're all great and. And really just learning what a nonpro profit, how that structure works and how it serves a community, a broader sense of people rather than just one organization. I feel like I'm now serving an entire community.

Melissa Winebarger [00:02:42]:
So that's been a real learning curve for me. And also just figuring out one thing that I learned recently. I think it was in your session, maybe it wasn't.

Kenny Lange [00:02:59]:
If it wasn't, I'll still take credit.

Melissa Winebarger [00:03:01]:
So just really what it. What makes us unique and different from other organizations that are out there and I think trying to really hone in on that specific thing. And how are we serving differently? Because if there's someone already out there doing what we're doing, then let's come alongside them and serve with them. But really if we are bringing a unique thing and a unique idea, then I want to do that well and with excellence and always as to the Lord. So those are right. What were some of the big things?

Kenny Lange [00:03:35]:
A lot swirling right now, but it's all good. It's all exciting to give the listeners a frame of reference. Can you talk a bit about what you were doing previously at Jasper and maybe what Jasper is and what your role was and so they understand where you're situated now and why it's so different?

Melissa Winebarger [00:03:55]:
Yeah, absolutely. So Jasper is a family owned, midstream oil and gas company that was started by John Jasper in 1992. And he really just had a heart for people. Part of the reason he started his own company was so that those employed by the company would be treated fairly and well and really in a different way. He really believed that the company belonged to the Lord and he committed all of that to the Lord. And over the years just flourishing, profitable, really grew. And his children, each one gifted in different ways, stepped into the company to oversee maybe HR or the finance. Just however they were gifted and they too believed that it belonged to the Lord.

Melissa Winebarger [00:04:51]:
And so they really began to dig in and say, but what does that really look like? How do we live that out? How do we bring our faith into the workplace? And so in 2016 they really began to press in and pray and abide and ask the Lord, what does this look like? And he began to show them it's the people right in front of you. It's how do you invite them to bring their whole self into the workplace and love and care well for them in a way that really points them to Jesus and his love for them. So we love them because of how Jesus loved us. And we try to show that love. And so I was hired in 2017 to help implement some of the ideas that they had and just really dream with them and pray with them on how do we do this well, and what does this look like? And so the Lord just very faithfully began to lead us down different, different Ideas and things that we would implement to really bring alongside or bring along our employees into this relationship with Jesus. And so really, regardless of how they respond, we are still going to walk alongside them, love them, care for the whole person, not just the task that they bring to the workplace. So. And then with that too, Kenny really teaching them how their work matters.

Melissa Winebarger [00:06:19]:
Like, we believe that we're all created to work, that we're all made in the image of a working God. And so how does the person who is designing and engineering our gas plant, how does their work matter as much as the guy who is welding and building the structure that the engineer designed? And so really helping people understand that their work has value no matter what role that is.

Kenny Lange [00:06:50]:
Gotcha. Which I love that. And have heard many different people talk about the culture at Jasper, including my friend that I talked you about that, that works in the marketing department. She's worked at churches, she's worked for herself. And then I was like, you're going to work where? I was like, that seems. I was like, oil and gas. I was like, okay, cool. If you're into being around people who swear like sailors, don't be around me.

Kenny Lange [00:07:20]:
But then don't. Don't be around them. But she's. No. It's a totally different culture place. It's really unique. And I was like, sure. Until I started, you know, coming to some of the events and talking to different people, I was like, there really is something different going on here, which is really difficult to do regardless of industry.

Kenny Lange [00:07:39]:
But in my whatever professional opinion I. I have or am entitled to, I think you've done it in an industry that is maybe more resistant to that sort of high touch, high culture emphasis approach that you might associate more with, say, like a tech company or something like that, where that's not just embraced, but almost expected and demanded in some cases.

Melissa Winebarger [00:08:08]:
So, yeah, we, when we. When I first came, I don't know, maybe six, eight months in. So we have our. We have our headquarters, which is mainly, I would say your blue collar or, excuse me, your white collar. The. The designers, the engineers, the hr, your office people. And then you have. We have our fabrication shop.

Melissa Winebarger [00:08:29]:
And I would spend time out at the fabrication shop. And I remember the first kind of outspoken Christian that I met there. I was like, hey, you're my guy. You're going to come alongside me. You're going to help me with these guys out there. And we're gonna. We're gonna have an impact. We're gonna start praying for them.

Melissa Winebarger [00:08:48]:
And he goes, have you been out to the shop? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, do you know the guys out there? And I'm like, just the. The idea of, like, they're kind of unreachable. They just want to come to work, get a paycheck, and go home. And I'm like, no, no, no, you. You've got to believe with me that everybody wants to be known and seen and heard and valued. And they are no exception. They have this rough, tough exterior, but they are still created in the image of God, and they need to be known and seen and heard.

Melissa Winebarger [00:09:25]:
And. And when we began to see, like, that transformation of them going, okay, you can try this your way. And then seeing these guys really step into, hey, I'm having this trouble. Can you pray for me? Or, hey, I really need to talk to somebody. No, they. They feel valued now, and they know that they can bring all of their self into this space. So really exciting to see stuff like that trans. Transpire.

Kenny Lange [00:09:54]:
Yeah. I can only imagine what it's like to see that they're suspicious. What is this lady doing? She seems really excited, crazy, but she's like, just make sure she keeps a. A hard hat on. I don't want to get in trouble. But it's. It sounds a lot like what you did. I mean, obviously there.

Kenny Lange [00:10:13]:
There's a, you know, from a Christian perspective, there's a. An act of, you know, evangelism, discipleship, Just love that goes out from. From an HR leadership component, I'd say you did a. And not just you. I know that there were more people involved in this, but it sounds like a great degree of psychological safety was created. Dr. Timothy Clark, who created the four stages of inclusion, Learner, Contributor Safety, and Challenger Safety. It's this place to where, like, that inclusion safety is a lot like what you just said is they want to know that they're seen, heard, valued, and that what they do matters.

Kenny Lange [00:10:53]:
But also they're. It sounds like they're no longer afraid to bring their whole selves to work because I know so many people and I've worked at places where I better not bring that up because there'll some. The boss or the company or colleagues are going to think, oh, my attention's divided. I'm less committed. I'm less serious about my work because I'm trying to handle a personal issue at home or something like that. And I think that's a real gift, because living in that sort of fear not only is just damaging to your soul, but it also damages productivity. I mean, it affects the bottom line. Dr.

Kenny Lange [00:11:30]:
Clark will mention it, and it's a phrase that's really stuck with me. He says when we do the work to increase psychological safety like you did, that there is a release of discretionary effort. Right. People can mail it in, but then people can really work the whole, you know, run through a brick wall sort of effort and collaboration, which is hard to do, but so worth it to, to put in the work. So with that, how does all of that work and seeing what you've seen and experiencing the growth and both just like internally with your people, but also the growth of the team and the impact, how does all of that translate into a nonprofit? And were you, did you sign up to be the founding executive director? Were you voluntold? And. And then how. Does, how has that impacted your perception of your leadership coming into this?

Melissa Winebarger [00:12:27]:
Yeah, those are great questions. So as we were starting to implement a lot of these things within Jasper, other business owners and professionals began to ask questions because they were hearing kind of on the street like, hey, like we heard you're doing these things. How are you doing that? Is that legal? And, but also I think they were hearing the positive impact from just people that worked with us. And, and so they were beginning to ask questions. And so we found ourselves having a lot of lunch meetings or just people who wanted to pick our brain. And so we said, hey, let's bring these business professionals or business leaders, owners, whatever, together, and we'll bring in some people that have been teaching us they can teach better than us to, to just gather together, we can collaborate and talk about what does this look like. And so about six years ago, we did our first Beyond Business Summit. And it was just to do that, to just teach people what we were learning.

Melissa Winebarger [00:13:39]:
And so we've done that every year. And as we've done that once a year, people just ask for more. Can we do it? Can y'all do it twice a year? Or is there any other material that you can provide? Can you do additional teachings? Can you come and train. Train our people? And we just kind of had to say no because we didn't have anything in place to do that. I, I was full time loving and caring well for my team. That's caring well for the employees and still doing this summit on the side or this meeting with business professionals on the side. And so that really began to grow. We did do a second event in 2024.

Melissa Winebarger [00:14:26]:
We did the, the summit and then we did a mid year connect, what we call connect. And, and then we started working on some curriculum to build out like an eight month cohort program that people were asking for. And but all of that was very part time for me and I wasn't really able to commit a lot of time to it. And so earlier this year we just started thinking about the idea of what if we split off, what would that look like? And just felt like that was the direction the Lord was leading us. And so yeah, we started the nonprofit. We. It was, it was a little bit scary and just said, oh wait, I'm leaving Jasper. Like, yeah, like how? Like I wouldn't be a part of Jasper anymore.

Melissa Winebarger [00:15:15]:
And so but I knew that was the Lord. Like the Lord had set up a really great team within Jasper and I felt very comfortable. They're going to do great. And it was okay for me to step away. So yeah, I chose him step into this. And obviously with the support of Jasper, the family, they're supporting and helping in every way that they can. And so that's how I stepped into the founding executive director, as you would say.

Kenny Lange [00:15:49]:
Yeah, that. Which is a great transition when you sort of just, you follow the, the energy of like, well, okay, well, we're getting a little bit of something here. Part of it is just an efficiency thing. Like you can't take everybody to lunch. Let's just bring them all in the room. Let's do an event. We'll take a few hours and it'll be great. And then he's well, could you do this? Could you do that? Could you add this?

Melissa Winebarger [00:16:13]:
And you're like, everyone has ideas for you. Right?

Kenny Lange [00:16:17]:
Don't get me started.

Melissa Winebarger [00:16:20]:
Yes, I know.

Kenny Lange [00:16:21]:
Yeah, well, if, if you are, I mean they do for businesses, but man, if you're a nonprofit or a church, everybody has suddenly become an expert on what you are and what you should do next and how this should work minutes. And usually the loudest people are the folks with the least amount of leadership experience. And if that comment offended you, you can email Melissa at. I'm just kidding. Yeah, I will take all of the comments. Bring it on. But so stepping into this. And you mentioned never had led a nonprofit before, operated with the board.

Kenny Lange [00:17:00]:
Right. Always had a. The singular boss most people have. What. What are some of the things that maybe you went in thinking and of course I know we're however many months into this, it's still relatively new. You're in your first year of this being the entity that it is. What are some things that took you by surprise that you. I thought it was going to be this way, but it's ended up feeling this way.

Kenny Lange [00:17:28]:
And even if it's a good surprise.

Melissa Winebarger [00:17:30]:
To be honest, I don't know. This is going to sound terrible because I agreed to step into this, but I. I honestly don't know that I fully thought through what this was going to look like because the things that I had already been doing, like planning the summit or the connect or working on this curriculum, I was already doing. And so it felt like, oh, I'm just going to have more time now to focus on these things and make them really great and excellent, and it's going to be great. But the time thing has not been proven yet because I think setting out, I mean, anytime you start something new, there are all the things that you have to do. We had to do a website. Not my gift at all. I, like, I thought I was gonna cry every time they sent me a new.

Melissa Winebarger [00:18:40]:
Not so much the design, but the wording. Like, it was not my wording, but I had to, like, come to settle with. Okay, it's not my wording, but they're the professionals and they know how to communicate with a broader audience. And so just some of those things, like, that was really hard. I haven't had to manage finances in a really long time. My husband does that. My accounting department at work does that. And so like having a set of print books.

Melissa Winebarger [00:19:08]:
And so there's these things that just have come along that I didn't really fully think through the. Some of the just small logistics of starting a nonprofit. But one thing that has been really surprising to me, that I didn't expect is the amount of support from the community and other people that are in the faith and work space. I was able to go to Boulder several weeks ago and meet with leaders from other nonprofits from really all over the country. We had San Francisco, New York, Austin, some folks from the Carolina, so just Florida, all over that are doing what we're doing in their own city. And we came together to just collaborate and talk about what are the challenges, where do we see struggles, how are we addressing that? What are the industries that are specific to our communities, that are big, and how do we step into those and help? And so that has been a surprise that there's just this very open handed, generous spirit within this community that is saying, whatever we have developed, it's yours, just ask and no competition. So that's been really great. And then just from just the local community of people who have said, hey, we've already seen what you've been doing.

Melissa Winebarger [00:20:39]:
We love it and we Want to help however we can. So that has been encouraging and also surprising and such a gift from the Lord.

Kenny Lange [00:20:50]:
So that sounds amazing. Especially the, the meetup in, in Boulder and not feeling like there's a, a spirit of competition because, you know, I've, I've been to some ministry conferences in my day and, and it's like, yeah, we're here to get ideas, but there's, you know, sometimes that an underlying one upsmanship that's there. So that, that sounds like a really unique experience. So one of the transitional elements that you mentioned at the very beginning and we're mentioning just now is that shift from having a very defined group of stakeholders or customers or audience of people that you're serving inside of Jasper to now feeling like, let's the greater Tyler community, which depending on how you section that off, can include up to like a quarter of a million people. Which by the way is why the traffic is so God awful during the middle of the day. I learned that through leadership Tyler, that our, our population swells to about a quarter million during the working hours. But that is a shift and there's. The delivery is different because with workers you have a captive audience.

Kenny Lange [00:22:09]:
They're part of the company, you're part of the company. And here you have a community with really no obligation. Right. So that's a harder way in, but it's also a lot more broad and the personalities and the needs are far more diverse. How have you processed that transition?

Melissa Winebarger [00:22:31]:
Hmm. That's another really great question. I think for me, even just coming into Jasper and realizing that you really can't do very much without relationship. And so what I mean by that is if I would have just gone into Jasper and gone out to the shops and just started telling people about Jesus and hey, you should believe. I believe you should live like I live, I probably wouldn't get very far. And what I've known is that you have to earn the right to be heard. And that only comes by knowing people's story, building a relationship with them. They know that you care about them.

Melissa Winebarger [00:23:29]:
And then hopefully the hope is that then you have this right to say, hey, can I tell you about the greatest love story ever told? It's Jesus. And so I, I think for me it. And I know, I mean, you're talking about a quarter million people, right? Like, obviously I can't go build relationships with all of those people, but I think it starts with just relationships with key people. Whether that's a business owner who really wants to step in to transforming his workplace for Christ, his or her workplace for Christ. And then helping them do that, then they, you know, helping them transform their heart and workplace, then that leads to transformed people in that place, transformed families, transformed communities. And so I think it just, I mean if Jesus was relational, it, that's how he led, was through relationships. And so I just think for me, if I, even when you said a quarter million, like my heart kind of was like, like that's overwhelming. Just let me crawl into the table.

Melissa Winebarger [00:24:43]:
I don't want to do this anymore. But if I can take off, take those bite sized pieces and say, okay, who's, what is the next right step for me? What is the next right relationship? Or Lord, I see that you have this grand plan for, for beyond business, but I need to know what the next step today or this week is right now.

Kenny Lange [00:25:09]:
I, it makes me think of one of my first jobs out of college was knocking on business doors selling electricity. So yeah, that, oh, that's. I tell you what, if you want to get over your fear of rejection, knock on 40, 50 doors a day trying to sell electric. But my, my manager, when I first started, he had lots of great sayings like he, I, I'm pretty sure had internalized everything Zig Ziglar had said and, and, and some great content. Yeah, and a lot of great sales trainers. But he would talk about how do you eat, he would ask us how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Because we had these big like sales quotas that we had to go and they're on the board every day when we walk in to do our prep meeting. And so you would see like, how am I doing against my quota? How am I doing against the other sales reps in the room? And it sounds like you've taken that same approach is you recognize that whether you want to look at just the Tyler community or the, the mission of faith and work and enabling that, that if there ever was an elephant, that probably is one.

Kenny Lange [00:26:22]:
And so to break it down into those bite sized chunks sounds like that's created one piece instead of freaking you out. Not that you can't have those moments, but it also seems like it's helped you build momentum. So it's not analysis of paralysis or paralysis of analysis. There we go. I think I got it right. I don't know which so often I see leaders run into when they have big dreams, big vision to impact people for good. But it feels so big. This, I don't.

Kenny Lange [00:26:56]:
What about, where do I even get started? This is such a tangled web. There's so many topics. I could do a million things. But finding that focus seems to have not necessarily, I would say, come naturally because it sounds like you've been well supported, which sounds like a key element in your success. Can you talk a little bit about how have you engaged other leaders, whether within Jasper, outside that have been supportive to help you take those next right steps?

Melissa Winebarger [00:27:26]:
Yeah. So as I mentioned, the Jaspers have been super supportive of me launching Carrie Ann Jasper Yearty. She is my board chair. So she has been my boss for the last seven years at Jasper. I've worked under her leadership and now still technically working under her leadership.

Kenny Lange [00:27:53]:
Doesn't seem like she's willing to let that go just yet.

Melissa Winebarger [00:27:57]:
Well, when we talked about doing this, I was like, I can't, I don't want to do this without you, at least initially. Like I, I need that support. And she is very supportive and in fact jokes with me that she's a little bit jealous actually that I'm getting to be the ED and not her. And so, so we have a great relationship and she's been with me the whole time we've dreamed together. Pray. I mean we.

Kenny Lange [00:28:27]:
Yeah.

Melissa Winebarger [00:28:28]:
So very supportive there. And she's just a great leader. She's a challenger. And so she definitely challenges me to step out and, and do things that are out of my comfort zone, but it's always for my good. So. And then I have again just talking about the support from our community. I have reached out to several other just nonprofits within the community, other EDs in the community and just said, hey, can we have coffee? I just need to know what does it look like to report to a board? What is my role in that? And then I have met with other folks who serve on boards. I was meeting with a guy this morning, he has served on several different boards within the community.

Melissa Winebarger [00:29:15]:
And I just said, hey, what do you expect from an ed? What are the things that you're looking for from an executive director? And he, you know, just laid some things out. These are the things that I would look for. And so really just trying to surround myself with people who have been in this space, the non profit space, whether on a board or as someone who's worked in one. I know Deanna Sims at Children's Advocacy Center. Yeah, she is like a superhero to me. I mean like she's so great and so giving and generous and I can learn, have learned and continue to learn so much from her. So there's just so many people within the community that are just open handed with Their knowledge and resources that I've been able to just ask them to, to meet with me. And I just pick their brains.

Melissa Winebarger [00:30:10]:
Don Franks is another one that comes to mind that I just pick her brain. What do you, what would you tell me about this? What was the biggest surprise for you? What are some things I should look for? And so really just trying to stay in that place of learning from other people that have been doing this.

Kenny Lange [00:30:28]:
So I love that I'm, I may need to ask you what are some good questions to ask dawn because I'm meeting with her on Monday and I don't get intimidated much, but I don't know, she carries a weight with her. When she's, like, moving around the room, I'm just like, hi. And then I keep moving on.

Melissa Winebarger [00:30:46]:
So she is one of the sweetest, sweetest, kindest. Yeah, I was a little nervous meeting with her too, just because her name comes up in so many conversations that I was like, I'm meeting with a superstar and, but she is so kind and yeah, willing to just help.

Kenny Lange [00:31:05]:
So to that end, I'm curious because I. You run across leaders who they, it's clear that they need help. We all do at all times, pretty much. If you think you don't, then you're the problem. Start there. Or as Dave Ramsey would also say, the, the bad news is you're the problem. The good news is you're also the solution. Or you could go with Michael Jackson and start with the man in the mirror and ask him.

Kenny Lange [00:31:30]:
And feel changes ways. So there's from finance to pop culture, dated pop culture. But I'm trying to reach multi generational audiences here.

Melissa Winebarger [00:31:41]:
Good job.

Kenny Lange [00:31:42]:
So with that, how was it asking these people for help? Because I, I, I come across people who think, oh, man, like, I know that that person's really smart on this, or they would know this and they probably don't have time or they don't, they don't want to just have a, you know, can I pick your brain on this sort of thing? You know, people are even, you know, will make posts like, I don't have time for, you know, pick my brain. Things like what I do is valuable and I'm going to charge you money for it. That doesn't sound like your experience, and that may be a function of the people you asked, but. Or it could be the way you ask and you're just a lot nicer than everyone else. But talk a little bit about that approach because I think that there's probably some listeners who they want to grow and learn. And maybe they're not the founding executive director, never done it before, but maybe they're in a leadership position and it's a new level that they've never yet held. Maybe they're even. It's their first time as manager, first time as CEO, first time as a senior leader.

Kenny Lange [00:32:46]:
What would you recommend to that person who's looking to strike out or has been given an opportunity? And they want that mentorship and they want that wisdom imparted into them so that they can get past whatever fear or lies they may be telling themselves about that.

Melissa Winebarger [00:33:05]:
Yeah, that's a good question. Great questions. Kenny, you're stumping me.

Kenny Lange [00:33:08]:
Here is why they pay me the medium dollars.

Melissa Winebarger [00:33:13]:
I think for me, it started with looking at who I already knew that might know someone and just saying, hey, here's what I'm doing. Do you know anyone that would be willing to, to speak with me or do you know anyone that has time or whatever? And I will say there, there are a couple of people that I reached out to that I thought they don't have time for me and was pretty nervous about even reaching out because like, oh my gosh, they're going to think I'm so dumb. They're going to think, why aren't, you know, like, I don't have time for her. And. But I think it's, it's, it, it kind of reminds me of what you were talking about your job at college and like this fear of rejection that we all have. I don't know anybody that doesn't have a fear of rejection. And so. But that can also become an idol if we're not careful to where we allow that to control us rather than saying, okay, just because someone doesn't have time for me or maybe what I'm doing is it on the same level of value to them as it is to me is not a reflection of who I am still created in the image of God, loved by him.

Melissa Winebarger [00:34:39]:
Like, so, like, this idea of rejection is very real and I'm not dismissing it at all because I deal with it myself all the time. But I think just having to say, what do I want more? Do I want to learn and grow or do I want to stay stuck in this fear? So.

Kenny Lange [00:34:58]:
Right.

Melissa Winebarger [00:34:58]:
I know that's not exactly what you're asking, but I think that we really have to look at ourselves first and say, why am I afraid? What is keeping me from stepping out and stepping into a growth opportunity once we evaluate that and then hopefully we can overcome and step into that. But it did take me just reaching out to people that I knew, new people and asking them to make that connection. You and I were talking earlier today about someone that you said I should know. And I'm like, hey, would you introduce me to that person? I don't know them, but can you, you know, send an email and introduce us and whether that person wants to meet with me or not? I tried. And so.

Kenny Lange [00:35:45]:
Right.

Melissa Winebarger [00:35:45]:
I think that's it. And then you have to. For me, I, I really, when I don't know an answer, I don't mind asking for help. I do. My. I, I do have a problem asking for help in some other areas, I'm not gonna lie. But like, when it comes to just, when it comes to just like wanting to learn and gain wisdom and things that I don't understand, I really don't mind asking for help because that's the only way that I know I'm going to grow.

Kenny Lange [00:36:10]:
So that's really good.

Melissa Winebarger [00:36:11]:
I don't know if I answered your question.

Kenny Lange [00:36:13]:
I think it did. It may be less about the tactic and more about evaluating your internal reasons for being afraid or not taking the jump. And also I, I would say in there is evaluating. You're talking about finances like, you know, do a cost benefit analysis. Is your silence worth your program, your business, your leadership suffering? Are you willing to pay that price? It's like an ignorance tax. Are you willing to pay it? And if you're not, then we get past whatever insecurities we might have and make the ask. And in my experience, sounds like your experience and several other people leaders that I've talked with, it sounds, they're always pleasantly surprised that people are more willing to be generous with their wisdom to pay it forward than you might expect.

Melissa Winebarger [00:37:04]:
So the other thing that I have found, Kenny, is people love to talk about what they know. So if, if you're asking someone to just share about their experiences and the things that they are knowledgeable in, they like to talk about those things. People like to talk about themselves and they like to talk about things that they know because it makes them, typically it makes them feel important and valued. And so I have found that just people say, I don't have time for you to pick my brain, but you want to talk about what you know. So I have found that to be a good thing. It's when you're asking people to just talk about themselves, it's easy.

Kenny Lange [00:37:49]:
Yes, I, I have found that, that, that was also a mental shift for me as well. I was like, ah, just get this Person on a roll talking about themselves, and then you have to go, it's like, man, this person talks about themselves a lot. It's like, well, I kept asking the questions. So if someone's listening and you know, they're, they're taking all this in, but they say, hey, this faith at work, this. How do we connect? Like your bio said, the Sunday worship to Monday work feels intimidating. Potentially it might be illegal. Like, some people, I think, genuinely are afraid about how to do that. If someone wanted to take their first step towards bringing their faith, their whole self, with their faith, into work in the next 24 hours, spending little to no money, what advice would you give them?

Melissa Winebarger [00:38:40]:
I'll. Hopefully I have time to say this. I think most people feel like their work doesn't matter to the Lord. He doesn't really care about my work. But I think that is. That perspective really has to change to where people have to understand that God created us to work. And our work is really the number one thing that we have to influence culture and to bring flourishing into the world. So with that, like, understanding, like God created us for this good thing, this work, even though it's hard and we bring our broken sinfulness into it, it still is how God made us to be, whether it's paid work or not.

Melissa Winebarger [00:39:25]:
Like, God created us to work. And so a lot of people, when they hear this idea of faith and work, there's this kind of limited or truncated view of, oh, you're asking me to go to work and evangelize. It's not just that, or, oh, you're asking me to live out my morals in the workplace. I can do that. I can work with integrity. I cannot steal. I can be kind. And so it's not.

Melissa Winebarger [00:39:56]:
It's really not just one of those things. It's really all of these things. It's who. It's being formed into the image of Christ. And whether that's sharing the gospel or listening to the voice of the Lord praying before a meeting, maybe it's just helping someone who's hurting at work. Or, yes, please live out ethical decisions in your workplace. Work with excellence. Try to.

Melissa Winebarger [00:40:21]:
If you see brokenness within your industry, like, how do you step in and reform that? And so there's all these different ways. But I think for. If you're asking within the next 24 hours, low cost, what would that be? I would say begin with prayer. I think that's the simplest thing to do, is to say, lord, what does this look like for me in my space? Because it's Going to look different in every industry and in every person. And so, Lord, what does this look like for me in my space? Where am I bringing brokenness that taking me a look in the mirror? How am I bringing brokenness into my work? And how do I be light in the darkness? And so I think that's the simplest thing. And I think when you begin with that and truly submit that to the Lord, then he's faithful and he's going to show you because it's his heart. And so that would be my answer.

Kenny Lange [00:41:31]:
I love it. Now you have an event coming up that I've already got my ticket for. I'm very excited.

Melissa Winebarger [00:41:40]:
So you were one of our first, our first purchasers.

Kenny Lange [00:41:44]:
Hey. And if you want to bring me on stage to celebrate that, I would not be. And I'm just kidding. Oh. If somebody wanted to get excited about it, read about it and attend and obviously this is something that's going to be based here and, and the, the greater Tyler, Texas. So those of you listening overseas, buy a ticket and fly over here. We'll welcome you.

Melissa Winebarger [00:42:04]:
That would be great.

Kenny Lange [00:42:05]:
And treat you to some awesome barbecue. But if somebody wanted to learn more about it or just talk a minute about what is the Beyond Business Summit this year? What are you excited about and how can people get a ticket?

Melissa Winebarger [00:42:19]:
Yep. So 2025 Beyond Business Summit, January 16th. So excited. The theme is Doing Work Differently. So I could preach on that a little bit, but I won't right now. So doing Work Differently. We have some amazing speakers that will be with us. Peter Greer from Hope International will be with us.

Melissa Winebarger [00:42:43]:
Reagan Rose from Redeeming Productivity. You can check all these folks out online. Bill Hendricks with Giftedness center out of Dallas. So we have a great lineup of speakers that are really going to come in and, and talk about these different aspects of work. And how do you. What does it look like from leadership? What are some practical applications stewarding? Well, Bill Hendricks has a great message on just a flourishing community. So it's going to be really great. We'll have great discussion, great collaboration time.

Melissa Winebarger [00:43:19]:
Some breakouts. So if you want to learn more, BeyondBusiness.org is our website which is where you can see all the speakers. You can purchase a ticket there.

Kenny Lange [00:43:30]:
Listeners, please go check that out. Beyondbusiness.org read about it, sign up. I promise you won't regret it. I got a friend of mine brought me this last year. I didn't even know what it was or what was going on. I just saw it all over my Facebook and my friend had an extra ticket and brought me. And it was really impactful. The speaker was amazing.

Kenny Lange [00:43:54]:
The connections were great. So I highly recommend it. And no, Melissa did not pay me to say that. So, Melissa, thank you so much. And if people wanted to connect with you or ask questions or anything like that, where can they find you?

Melissa Winebarger [00:44:10]:
Yeah. So we have beyondbusiness. Org on Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn, Melissa Weinbarger. But my email address is melissa@beyondbusiness.org and I would be glad to answer any questions. Reach out, jump on a call.

Kenny Lange [00:44:29]:
Awesome. And you can pick her brain. How about that? We'll include links to all of that in the show notes. Melissa, thank you so much for being a guest. I'm looking forward to the event and looking forward to having you on again sometime in the future. So I'm sure you'll have some stories that you'll accumulate after some more. More time in the executive director seat.

Melissa Winebarger [00:44:49]:
Yes. Thanks for inviting me. It's been a pleasure.

Kenny Lange [00:44:53]:
Absolutely. Well, thank you to the listeners. I. We wouldn't do this without you. I mean, maybe we would. We just wouldn't record it and. Because that would be weird to do it this way. But we appreciate you.

Kenny Lange [00:45:04]:
This is why we make this content. This is why I'm trying to bring on interesting guests who have a different way of thinking about work, leadership and life. So if you are enjoying this, smash that like and subscribe button, whatever the appropriate button or review system is, please engage with that. It gives me feedback to let me know what I can do better, what you really like. What we should double down on. The other part is it helps the algorithms pick up on all of this so that it can get in front of more people who are looking for this kind of help. And you never know that your review or your like or your share may put this conversation in the path of somebody who really needs it to unlock their next step and leadership. And that is just a free.

Kenny Lange [00:45:47]:
An awesome way to pay it forward and make the world a little bit better. But until next time, change the way you think you'll change the way you leave. We'll see.