How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Lisa Sharapata [00:00:00]:
We have what we call the inward mindset and the outward mindset. And an inward mindset is really about how I see other people in relation to me. Am I really taking time to understand their challenges, their needs, the objectives that they have on their plate and how I'm impacting them?

Kenny Lange [00:00:23]:
Welcome to the how leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Lisa Sharapata. She is the CMO of the Arbinger Institute. She is passionate about making a difference, which is amazing because I am too. She serves as a go to market partners ambassador. She lends her expertise as an advisor for Hushley and plays a pivotal role as the co founder and board member of the peak community. Outside of work, she thrives in the great outdoors and enjoys walking, watching soccer like all good people should and spending time with their family and dog. Welcome to the show, Lisa.

Lisa Sharapata [00:01:07]:
Hey, Kenny. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Kenny Lange [00:01:10]:
Well, at some point I might bring the soccer thing back around because I'm a soccer nut. If you can't tell. I've got my Chelsea flag and my curtains and all of that. But tell me today, what is on your mind?

Lisa Sharapata [00:01:24]:
Yeah, I guess. Recently at the Harbinger Institute, we released a piece of a new research report on the culture of workplaces. And so something that's been actually on my mind even before I came to Arbinger, it's one of the reasons why I came here, and it's been fascinating to me to really dig into this, this topic. So we'll leave it there.

Kenny Lange [00:01:48]:
Workplace culture, I think, has been highlighted for a while. I think it accelerated, at least in my observation, when the pandemic hit. And suddenly we had to think about how do we maintain culture? Is it happy hours? Newsflash. It's not. But what are some of the parameters? Or maybe what were the questions that the Arbinger Institute was trying to answer that maybe they weren't finding answers for in the marketplace, given how much this is a talked about subject.

Lisa Sharapata [00:02:21]:
Yeah, I think the biggest things that have been highlighted for me, and I'll say, like, I was in b two b tech for a decade before this. So I've seen what I would call the hustle culture, this growth at all cost mindset, this pretty stressful, intense environment. And it was pretty toxic most of the places. And then once Covid hit, once VC started having money issues, once the market started changing, it just got worse and worse. And so what I've noticed, though, over two decades, being in the workforce and a lot of different kinds of organizations, is that I feel like it's this hidden force, this thing that set aside or that you talk about in theory, but you, that most organizations don't really focus on as a strategic initiative and that no one really owns it. So that's, I think, the most compelling bit of data, too, that we're finding that supports us, where we see the leaders coming back with saying all these different reasons why they're unable to meet or exceed their goals, and it comes all over the place, hiring, workload, communication, unclear priorities, silos. But none of them are saying it's culture, and these are all people in culture problems. So it's just really interesting.

Kenny Lange [00:03:45]:
Yeah, that is intriguing. So what if it's this invisible force, so to speak, and we don't mean to make it sound like it's Casper the ghost floating through your workplace, but I think people know it's there. Maybe they don't have a great definition for really what culture is. I think people, a lot of executives and leaders, I don't know that they would ever say this publicly, because they may not like the optics, but think of it as that's just all the stuff that makes you feel good at work. What did y'all find? Is the current thinking or prevailing wisdom about culture today?

Lisa Sharapata [00:04:24]:
Yeah. The way that we define it at the Arbinger Institute, and culture in its most simplistic form is the way that people work together every day. And you can argue and debate, and, oh, this should be a part of it or that. But ultimately, the kind of the net result of all the things that factor into what create a culture, the output of that is how employees approach their work in relationship to each other. And what is the impact of that on your business's performance? So that piece, that culture piece, the human interaction and the way that people are then approaching their work and impacting each other, that has a direct impact on business performance. And so that's what we're saying is ultimately the culture of your organization. How would you approach something? What are the decisions you're making? Those are affected by the culture, if you may say, oh, I would handle that this way here. And it's usually because it's these people that you're working with.

Lisa Sharapata [00:05:37]:
This is the dynamic you might have already had a problem with. So, and this person's going to be resistant, and you've tried this three times, and this, it's failed. And so you're, the way you're going to handle a certain situation in that environment is going to be much more like abrasive or like, I've done my part or, you know, it's not my problem. Versus if you were in a culture where people are saying, hey, how can I help? We're in this together. How can we get through this to hit this end result together? How am I impacting you? What are the challenges you're facing? I would have a completely different response to that. And we're much more likely to achieve the result, the desired result together. So that that's hopefully that brings to life what we mean by culture.

Kenny Lange [00:06:29]:
No, I love that. And also, I'm a huge fan of simple definitions. As my coach often tells me, less is more until it's not right. So if we can remember it, we can understand it. One of the things that I heard you say when you're talking about maybe the way that I'm coming across or I impact you in this work and the way I like to work is maybe not the way you like to. It sounds like y'all drill down into self awareness as well as emotional intelligence or EQ, which is how am I showing up? And then how do, how does the way I show up impact those around me? So it sounds like culture can feel very big, but it sounds like y'all went down a little further. Is that accurate?

Lisa Sharapata [00:07:14]:
I think with the original research that we have and that's gonna be available to any 160 page document, it's really highlighting the more, like, surface level things that are coming through in organizations. But the Arbinger institute and our work definitely goes deeper, like you're saying. So in our survey and our global report, we're spanning the globe and asking, this is not our clients. This is what's going on in the world. What are the factors that are impacting your organization's ability to achieve their results or to be resilient in these really challenging times? There's a lot of data there. But back to Harbinger's work, we really start to get into the mindset that is driving the behaviors that are then creating the results that you're getting.

Kenny Lange [00:08:10]:
Gotcha. And I love that you all went obviously, outside of clients, outside of the US. I can imagine some people may, they want to be resistant to the data because even though you say numbers don't lie, people are still resistant, unfortunately. What were some surprising things that you all found, given the fact that you're going from the US is heavily dominated by hustle culture grow at all costs. Those sorts of things you contrast with. I have some clients that are just US based, but then others that are spread out internationally. And like in Europe, it may be common to move a bit slower, and by default you have five weeks of vacation. And here, if you take more than two, you're seen as some sort of carefree, laxadaisical employee.

Kenny Lange [00:09:01]:
What were some of those things that jumped out that seemed to cut across the cultural divide of the US and other parts of the world?

Lisa Sharapata [00:09:11]:
Yeah, I think the biggest one I touched on earlier was when we're surveying folks of what are the biggest things impacting them from achieving their results. Not one person said culture. Not one. They said things like 40% said the inability to hire the right talent. That was the highest percentage. 33% said workflows. 32% said unmanaged workload, unmanageable workload. 25% said poor communication.

Lisa Sharapata [00:09:44]:
24% said lack of support from leadership. 24% said lack of employee accountability. Not one person said culture. And that was an option. And when I think back to, I'm like, the inability to hire the right talent. If you're having a problem hiring talent, just go back to the root of that. First of all, we know that people follow leaders that they love. So right then and there, do you have the right leaders in place? What's the environment on their team? Is it the kind of team that people want to be in when people are looking to go to their next job? They're going to read the reviews online.

Lisa Sharapata [00:10:24]:
They're looking for what other employees have said about that organization. That's usually it's culture related. You don't want to work here. It is so toxic and bad. Like you're going to. They're going to burn the candle on both ends. They're never going to is a culture problem. But again, I think that's the biggest thing.

Lisa Sharapata [00:10:43]:
That's just been very eye opening and I guess also insightful in that, because I don't think that leadership teams feel like they could go to their board of directors and say, I'm going to invest in culture this next year. We are missing our numbers here and we're doing this wrong here, and there's these problems here and there's just. I don't feel like there's this collective thought process that culture is impacting those things.

Kenny Lange [00:11:16]:
Yeah, I hear a couple of things, and I may want to drill in on the board of directors. I literally got an email this morning from someone asking for some help because they felt like their board of directors abandoned them. Now they're in the nonprofit space. So that may be a little different. But what it sounds like is that people are naming all of these problems and really they're all symptoms, but for whatever reason, they're not pointing back to the root, the illness. Right. If we want to use the medical analogy, is they say I can't hire and the workload and the this and then that. And the other thing is, yeah, you can try to adjust those with a better project management system and maybe hire a new HR director or you're doing all these things, spending money and time, but really you're treating the symptoms instead of the culture.

Kenny Lange [00:12:06]:
Is that fair to say?

Lisa Sharapata [00:12:07]:
Absolutely. And there's a lot of other research out there, not even just from us. We've seen this with Mackenzie research with Harvard Business Review that says that 70% of all transformations fail. Business transformations fail. And it's because people, to your point, they're trying to fix behaviors. Trying to fix behaviors by having a new person come in, tell them what to do or putting a new system in place or a new framework or a new structure. But they're not getting to the root cause of that, which is mindset. And that back to where Arbinger Institute and our work lies, is that you've got to go deeper to really have sustainable change in an organization.

Lisa Sharapata [00:12:53]:
You have to get to the root cause of what's driving the behaviors to begin with, which is people's mindset.

Kenny Lange [00:13:00]:
Yeah. Which I love. So you're hitting a nerve with me on a thought process I've been having lately, even about my own work. I was talking to somebody and the behavior changes. Honestly, that's the easiest place to start. Right. Because it's very external, it's very visible. Mindset is on the inside.

Kenny Lange [00:13:20]:
Obviously, you and I were talking before we hit record about y'all's books. And those are great. And they do address mindset. And then Dweck wrote the growth Mindset book, which has influenced a lot of different people on growth mindset versus like a stagnant mindset. But those things get at people's identity, that gets at how they truly see themselves and see the world and their worldview. Those are like you're going into the depths of people and asking them to change, which in some way, shape or form could feel like you're wrong. You're wrong for being this way. And it's nothing.

Kenny Lange [00:14:02]:
It can feel that way whether you say it that way or not. But if you're talking about transformational change, transformation, in my opinion, happens from the inside. Out. Not necessarily just I changed a few behaviors and suddenly I'm a brand new person. What is y'all's research shown? Or what have y'all seen in your time and existence of how do we as leaders start to impact and address things that are really not visible to the human eye because they're inside of people and get at people's identity to help them transform? Cause that's deep work, that's slow work, but that's where the meaning is. So how do you start to address that?

Lisa Sharapata [00:14:45]:
If you think to anything in your life that has really made a difference, and if you look back at the moments that you're like, that changed me, it does have to go that deep. Even your New Year's resolutions and why the most of them fail is because, yeah, I want to do that, but you really have to go deep. I can buy the gym membership. I can show up for a couple months. So hard to sustain. And so I think what we really focus on, first of all, we have what we call the inward mindset and the outward mindset. And an inward mindset is really. It's not so much about me, it's about how I see other people in relation to me.

Lisa Sharapata [00:15:26]:
Am I disregarding other people? Am I treating them as objects or blaming them? Am I really taking time to understand their challenges, their needs, their desires, the objectives that they have on their plate and how I'm impacting them? So I feel like most of the time, human nature, like most human beings, actually really do care how they make other people feel. When you. When you really get down to it, like, the things that I know, at least for me, that really lift my spirit, is when I feel like I've done something for someone else that made them feel better or added value to them, or accomplishing something on my own and having no one really there, like, cheering for me, isn't really all that great. But if I can do it with a team, or we can fix, figure out how to fix a problem when we're all in it together. And at the end, we can look at each other and be like, that was really tough, and we did this. There was something in that is so much more enjoyable and just meaningful, and people are looking for that. And actually, our research has shown that as well. Like, even from a compensation standpoint, this last round of research that we did, and I've seen a number of different reports that say these kinds of things.

Lisa Sharapata [00:16:42]:
But in our last round, 38% said feeling well compensated was important to them, whereas 50% said feeling valued and 46% said feeling respected were the most important things to them in their work. And so I think tapping into that and really getting to the heart of why, it's because we are wired to want to be a community and work together towards things and help each other out. It's just, I feel like you have to create the space for it and really take the time to do that. And when you get in these hustle cultures and you get in these really stressful, tight situations, and everyone feels like their job's on the line and their future's on the line, they. You get into this, what we call inward mindset, where you are just siloed on your own trying to figure out how you're gonna survive. And that's the piece that we really work on. That's our work, is to help people and leaders and organizations shift to this outward mindset where they're much more aware of each other and looking at how they can collaborate and cooperate and understand and be curious about how they're impacting each other in order to achieve these results collectively. So that's the shift, and it is hard.

Lisa Sharapata [00:18:10]:
There is no magic wand. That's a framework that someone's going to come in and say, all right, we're going to do this two day workshop, and we're going to get from here to here, and when we're done, we're all done. It's an ongoing. Even once you've made that shift, like when you get into that stressful situation, you're most likely to go back to that old way and pushing through and disregarding others and get out of my way. I got to fix this. So you've got to have this culture that then reinforces it, leadership that reinforces, hey, okay, we've got this problem. Let's share ideas, let's talk it through. Let's see how we can innovate versus you go fix it.

Kenny Lange [00:18:49]:
Right? I love that. So one of the things, and what she said that I was drawn to, and you said it a couple different ways, is doing this requires space and it requires time, which I would argue in many cultures, in particular us here in the United States, we are so hustle, bustle, get things done. Everything's at the altar of productivity that feels like a luxury that we can't afford, or somehow, if we do that, we are going to get passed up. You mentioned spending about a decade in tech, right? That's where you probably see the most, like, speed to market and innovation and moving and cranking. We don't have time to sit around and talk about how I impacted you. I just need you to GSD, just get stuff done. I'll say it that way because I didn't want to put the little e on my podcast episode, but the idea that that's a luxury, or I know that. I know it takes space and time, but it's going to hurt my business if I do that.

Kenny Lange [00:20:09]:
What are the conversations that y'all have with leaders to help them see, acknowledge that they feel that way and that feels like their reality, but how much it's actually hurting them and their company? And ultimately, in the business world, we'll leave the nonprofits out for a second. But when you have shareholders and all these different things, like how much that's actually hurting their bottom line or their capacity to grow and innovate, how do you all initiate those conversations?

Lisa Sharapata [00:20:42]:
First of all, we've been really fortunate that a lot of the work comes to us, and I think that is partly a testament to word of mouth and when it works, but it's also one of those, like, when you hit rock bottom and you don't know what else to do, I feel like it's when you're actually willing to take the time to figure out what you really need to do and change that's going to make a difference in a lot of cases. I think really, when you get to the end of the rope and you've tried all these other behavior based transformation things and they haven't worked and you're not getting the results that you need, is when you start to consider that there might be a better way. And I feel like that's when most people are willing to do the work and actually go that extra layer deeper. And look, there are some times where there's easy fixes to things and it doesn't require the transformation. But in most of the times, if you've got a culture that is toxic and your teams are not performing their best, it's usually, it's the people problems that are getting in the way. It's, we say culture eats strategy for breakfast and juckler, but you see this play out and again, like, people say it and talk about it and it sounds like really great. So to your point, it's really. You're going to have to.

Lisa Sharapata [00:22:15]:
You hit a point when you're willing to do that work.

Kenny Lange [00:22:21]:
Yeah, it's either you, I forgot the saying, but it's like you can choose the transformation or it will choose the time for you sort of thing. Or is transformer be transformed I don't know.

Lisa Sharapata [00:22:34]:
Yes, I've heard that for sure.

Kenny Lange [00:22:36]:
I just went on a spree of watching all the transformer movies. So I don't know, maybe I was mixing something up there, too. But there's a beauty. And the pain of reaching that point of I've got to shift something. And speaking as someone who has reached that sort of point on multiple occasions to where, okay, something's got to give. I've worked too hard. I'm going to. I'm going to take a break, or my body's going to force me to, or I've got to stop, pause like the freight train, and reconsider something so that I can repair a relationship.

Kenny Lange [00:23:14]:
It's unfortunate that we, as humans, have this pattern in us, that we have to be in so much pain that then we decide to do the thing that we, if we're being honest, probably knew that we should have been doing all along, or for at least a lot longer than we were willing to admit. That's okay. Y'all can admit it here. It's a safe space. But if there is a leader listening and they're like, okay, yeah, I think that there are some things, but they're looking around. Maybe they're not the senior most leader. Right. They want to affect change and culture, and they see some toxicity, but maybe they've tried and it's just a drop in the ocean.

Kenny Lange [00:23:57]:
What's some encouragement that you could give that person? Or what are the conversations maybe y'all have researched and seen be effective for starting those with the power to make decisions down that road, even if things are tough.

Lisa Sharapata [00:24:14]:
Yeah, I guess a few comments there. First of all, to really transform your entire organization, we do recommend focusing in three key areas. And again, this is backed by our research, too, that we're seeing that organizations that focus on their leaders and that their leadership teams bought in. Yeah, it's a lot easier than if you're middle management and you're trying to make this change happen organization wide without your leadership spine. But there still is space for that, and especially if you're owning some sort of a functional area. And we do work with teams, and we see, like, organizations that invest in team performance. So it's like you start with your leadership team, then ideally, you're going into the manager level and team performance and getting into the fringes of your organization. And then the third piece of it is actually inclusion and belonging training.

Lisa Sharapata [00:25:13]:
That would also be organization wide, but you can start in any one of those spaces. But to really transform the entire organization. We do see that really these three key areas of focus over time make the biggest difference. But as a manager, I've seen this, too, where if your team is running really well and things are going right and you're hitting your numbers and deliverables and doing the right things, and other departments maybe aren't, and they're having high attrition problems here and there. Typically, like, a good leader would come to you and say, what are you doing differently? Start to invest some time and seeing like, why is this working and that not working? And we've seen that kind of transformation happen, too, especially in larger organizations where they're like, wow, this one unit, business unit, whatever, is highly productive and not having the same problems as these other ones. Like, why is that? And they start to realize that these core principles are what the difference is and how do we expand that? Hopefully that helps. To answer your question, it starts with you control what you can control.

Kenny Lange [00:26:28]:
Yeah, I think the philosopher Michael Jackson said, we'll start with the man in the mirror.

Lisa Sharapata [00:26:34]:
That's right.

Kenny Lange [00:26:35]:
So I'd be curious to know, because a lot of the things that you've mentioned resonate with a concept that I've taken a great interest in, which is psychological safety. Has that influenced y'all's work? Obviously, you've got Amy Edmondson at Harvard, you've got doctor Timothy Clark with the four stages. That's iterated on some of that. To what degree is that influenced, if at all? The work that you did?

Lisa Sharapata [00:27:00]:
Yeah, 100%. This is back to that inclusion and belonging piece and creating a safe space where people feel like they can speak up or they aren't going to be, they're not in fear of repercussions, of speaking their mind, makes all the difference. And you think, I've had leaders in many organizations that have said things to me, don't come to me with a problem. If you don't have the answer. I don't want to hear it. Guess what? I shut up. If I don't have the answer, then. But I know there's a problem here, that if we can fix the will change the game.

Lisa Sharapata [00:27:39]:
But if I'm in an environment where it's, yeah, okay, there is a problem, how do we, let's brainstorm that together as a group, and everyone feels comfortable saying, you know, what if we try this, and what if we do that? That's when you get innovation. That's when truly get engagement from people who are going to bring their best every day. Otherwise, if you don't feel safe, and you're nothing. Feeling like you can really bring your true, authentic self. I guarantee you're going to take those talents somewhere else, whether it's in the garage at night, in a band on the weekend, doing something else. You love where your time and energy and expertise and passion are going to show up and it's not going to be at work. And, yeah, we talk about that all the time and it really, again, comes down. Psychological safety is a part of an inclusive environment where people really feel safe and comfortable and like they belong.

Lisa Sharapata [00:28:39]:
And, yeah, that makes. It makes a huge difference.

Kenny Lange [00:28:44]:
Yeah. I love the definition. The way that you described it remind me of the definition that Doctor Clark uses, which is psychological safety is a culture of rewarded vulnerability. Like, I. I don't know the answer to something which could be scary, especially if you're, like, in senior management or you're an executive. Like, you're supposed to have answers.

Lisa Sharapata [00:29:04]:
Yeah, you're a new CMO and you come in and you can see some stuff's broken, but you don't want to look like you don't know what you're doing. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:29:13]:
You're not speaking from experience at all, are you? That's not intimidating whatsoever that. That is really helpful to see. And. But again, we can start to create those pockets of rewarded vulnerability and change. And then there's. There's probably a false narrative about I can't really change much. You can change quite a bit and influence that. And like you said, maybe your department starts to become this model of inclusion and innovation and performance, which is.

Kenny Lange [00:29:44]:
Which are all this, like, the key metrics that executives or aboard or stockholders or anybody depending on your organization, they're all looking for. But the genesis wasn't in just working harder. It was creating that space. It was working on the culture. Right. The way in which we work, as you said at the beginning, right?

Lisa Sharapata [00:30:06]:
Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:30:08]:
So if there is a leader listening to this that I'm not questioning if a leader's listening, but for the leader listening to this, that says, you know what? This sounds good. Maybe this is the thing that has been operating in the background that I haven't been able to put my finger on. That is just that twist, that change we need to make to really set us in gear, because they see the potential of their people or their company or their team. We're just not getting there. What is like that, that first baby step that someone could take in the next 24 hours with little to no money to start down that road?

Lisa Sharapata [00:30:46]:
Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. This research report is free on our website and I know you'll drop a link for that. And there's just a lot of other links to things in there. So I think it's easy to just follow a thread if there's something that hits home with you. And we've got a lot of content that can just help spark some ideas of easy things you can do. But we also have three books and one of them is leadership and self deception. And there's a new version of it coming out in August, which I'm really excited about because it is just more care, like a better cast of characters, it's more modernized, and I think I feel like it's more like relevant to current culture and organizations today. So if you've already read it like this, worth the read, and if you haven't, it's definitely worth picking up.

Lisa Sharapata [00:31:34]:
And then we have another book called the outward mindset and another one called the Anatomy of Peace. And I think just some of the concepts and ideas in those books will really help to give you some ideas and things to go off of, and it's a great place to get started. We also offer public workshops and things like that, but I think that's a much heavier lift. So I'd recommend starting in the content side of things.

Kenny Lange [00:32:02]:
Yeah. So goat will we definitely have those links in the show notes? Grab the link to that report and also check out the book. I didnt ever make it to the outward mindset because I know they were built like a trilogy, which is awesome, but leadership and self deception was transformative to me. So a heavy endorsement on that. The Anatomy of peace. I need to go back and reread that one, but I remember going through that and it was just twisting my thoughts around. I also just love the title of that, which is really interesting because its maybe more relevant now then.

Lisa Sharapata [00:32:37]:
Yeah, I feel like it's more relevant now than ever actually, just because of some of the stuff going on in Israel and just that's.

Kenny Lange [00:32:44]:
Yeah, all over the world. Yeah. I would say probably one of the number one things lacking across the globe is a sense of peace. But we can't change everybody, but we can change ourselves. Start with yourself, get some content and start making those changes and then bring invite other people into that. Lisa, thank you so much for dropping wisdom. I felt like we could have talked about a great many things at length, but this is not the Joe Rogane experience and we don't go for 3 hours. But if somebody wanted to know more about you, the Arbinger Institute and see what sort of things y'all are up to.

Kenny Lange [00:33:16]:
Beyond the links that we put in the show notes to those particular resources, where else would you send them?

Lisa Sharapata [00:33:23]:
Yeah, for the Arbinger Institute, I'd go to arbinger.com. and we've got our resource hub there. There's events, there's a lot of stuff there that sign up for our newsletter. So that's a great place to start for myself. You can find me on LinkedIn. That's my channel of choice, and it's just backslash. My name, Lisa Sharapata.

Kenny Lange [00:33:44]:
Awesome. Thank you so much. We appreciate it and look forward to that book dropping. Or if you're listening to this in the future, go back and pick it up. Also, quickly mention that you said that there's a little bit of a contest on this landing page for a. Yeah. Cool copy.

Lisa Sharapata [00:34:01]:
Yeah. So for the book drops on August 27, and this page that's in the show notes, we're doing a contest for leather bound copies of the book. Just fill out the form there quickly and you'll be entered to win.

Kenny Lange [00:34:15]:
Awesome. And just to let everyone know, you are going to be competing against me, because I want that leather bound book.

Lisa Sharapata [00:34:20]:
And we've got a few hundred of them.

Kenny Lange [00:34:23]:
Okay. All right. So I was like, my competitive spirit came out. But thank you so much and to everybody listening, thank you so much for spending some time, some of your day. I don't take that for granted. If this helped you in any way, shape, or form, I would appreciate a rate, a subscribe, a review, a sharing the link with a friend or a colleague that you think could benefit from this or that maybe you want to invite into your own transformation. The simplest way to help your fellow leader is to get this in front of more people in any of those actions will do that. But until next time, change the way you think you'll change the way you lead.

Kenny Lange [00:34:58]:
We'll see you.