How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

What's? My relationship with God. Like, what's my relationship with my wife? Like,

what's my relationship with my children like? If there's fractures in

all of that, like noticeably fractures, that's a warning

sign that no matter how skillful I am and

whatever, I probably have some areas

in me that's negatively impacting other

people. And I'm living in law

land. If I think all of a sudden I can whip it into shape at

a company in that everything's merry.

No, life doesn't work like that.

Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast, a show that

transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think.

I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is Kevin

Johnson. He is the founder of Express Pro's Training,

Lead, Tandem, and probably other companies in

the future. So keep your eye on him because he's just spinning things out left

and right. But Kevin is the founder of both of those organizations

and is a certified distributor of multiple leadership and organizational

assessment tools. He has decades of experience in

management, business development, business strategy consulting,

training, speaking, teaching. The dude's smart, so you better listen

up. He loves unlocking individual and

organizational potential, and he is also

a voracious reader, an aspiring runner, and I would say he's a

little bit more than aspiring. But Kevin shares his life in his

home here in Tyler, Texas, where I live, too. So I

got a local person finally with his wife, his two daughters,

and three dogs. Welcome to the show, Kevin. It's great

to be here, Kenny. Thanks for having me, man. Well,

Kevin, what is on your mind today?

A lot of things, man. Some good things.

Some challenging things. Starting

with a challenging thing. Kenny, you might have

heard being in the community, we had a pastor commit suicide a few weeks

ago locally. And

did you hear about that? I did not,

but that may start to make some sense based on some conversations

I had recently no, that hadn't made it to me.

Okay, so different people run in different

circles, but there was a pastor that committed suicide here

locally maybe three or four or five weeks ago. And

this isn't about that, per se, but I knew that

pastor, I knew a lot of the people in that church and

closely in the past from a

distance now. But it just

got me to thinking about the

hurt that that church was going to go through.

And I know this is a leadership podcast and this is a very

leadership concept here that we're going

to get to, but I started thinking about the pain

that that congregation was going to experience,

and you think about that and our

mind can go all over the place with that. One

thing we can think about is how sad when

an individual gets to that place

where they decide to end their life,

because we know when we're in clear thinking mode we

know there's always a way out.

There's always a way forward. There's always hope.

Thinking about it from a Christian perspective or not,

whatever the circumstance, there's always a way forward.

And I started thinking about this concept of pain or

discomfort, and I kind of organize it into three categories.

And this applies in the workplace. It applies for

leaders. There is necessary pain.

There's a certain aspect. If we want to grow, if we want

to go from wherever we are to the next step up

pain and discomfort is a part of that process. We've

seen it all in our high school gym. No pain, no gain.

So there's necessary pain that we

have to go through in order to grow. Then there

is unnecessary pain

that we don't have to go through. For example, this congregation,

this is pain that was avoidable. All the grief,

the challenge they're going through, all of this was avoidable.

And then there's pain that we don't have control

over. I would call it tragic pain.

A natural disaster, a car accident

or going into the workplace, a major economic

downturn, and people are laid off or

sectors of industries are waning.

So those are tragic pain that we have to endure. So

one of the things I wanted to bring up here, Kenny, is as a

leader, when we think about our organization, we think about a team.

We're we as a

leader, are we bringing in

unnecessary pain, unnecessary

barriers, unnecessary

toxicity, that it's

not necessary, it doesn't have to be there.

If we were to improve our skills, improve our self awareness,

improve our character, improve our interpersonal

abilities, could we alleviate some of this pain and

dysfunction that exists so often in teams and organizations?

And I think that's a big part of my motivation and what I

do in working with leaders and organizations is what

are some of the low hanging fruit areas that we don't have to be in

this dysfunction? So I'll pause there, let you

interact with it a little bit. No, that's good.

I love the three types and distilling those down.

Right. Because it's easy to hold all pain as the

same. Right. And often it's just

like this is being something done to me. Whereas that first one,

it's almost something done for you, right. Like growth. It's

for your eventual benefit. But

I'm curious, in all of your coaching and

experiences when thinking about these principles

you just laid out, if you're reflecting back or even thinking of current

clients, don't have to name names, but

what do you see as the current thinking, prevailing

wisdom about pain and

toxicity in the workplace? I

know I have maybe some of my own views and thoughts and observations there, but

I'm curious what you're seeing and how that's mixing with these

recent thoughts.

So how are current or past

organizations with pain in general?

I think there are multiple

answers to that. I'll give a few.

One is I

think some organizations are in a

cycle of dysfunction

and they've become immune to the pain,

maybe like a chronic pain

that we learn.

Let's take something in your lower extremities.

You've had such a chronic pain that you adjust your gait, you adjust the

way you function and walk and move about to

accommodate for that pain. But it's not

efficient. It causes problems in other areas of your

body, et cetera. So that's something I see

in organizations. They've grown accustomed and they think,

this limp that I have, it

is, it has to be there. And I want to say, no,

actually it doesn't. Now it's going to be a process, getting rid of

it, but you don't have to function with

that limp. So that's one thought. Right. So

kind of the saying of it is what it is.

If we were getting into psychological terms,

that sounds a lot like learned helplessness, almost. I mean,

you've adjusted. You feel like you've adapted not well,

but it's that learned helplessness, like it can't

get better. So why or

which is a mistaken belief. Right, that's absolutely true. Or,

and this is the more scary Kenny is, they don't even see that

it is broken. They don't even see that it is a

limp. Okay. What's

blinding them to that? Because you would think when things are

bad, when things are not working, when things are frustrating, when things

seem harder than they should be,

that should be sending off flares. People in

particular, I would say the team members, the employees,

not maybe the senior leaders, because they may be the perpetrators, they may be the

ones ushering it in, like you mentioned. But shouldn't somebody say, man,

this sucks to work here, it's harder than it should be. Why

isn't that sending up a flare? Well, you're

right for maybe the middle management or

lower, they're going to feel those symptoms. And I

am speaking from a senior leadership standpoint.

Sure. Because those are the ones I'm typically dealing

with, and it just

comes down to self awareness. I

see. So for them, I guess from

the leader's perspective, are you saying then, because they

don't have self awareness, for them, that

environment has almost always existed around them

in some way? Because as my mom wisely said,

wherever you go, there you are.

Hey, a funny story on that. My wife and I went to New York

like 13 years ago, and we were getting off the

plane in New York or wherever in New Jersey,

and this lady from New York in her accent, I'm not going to

try to imitate it because I'm horrible with voice

stuff. She said, Just remember, wherever you

go in New York, there you are. So anyway, all

right. Yeah. So for

them, a lot of times for the senior leader, nothing's broken

or the problem is out there.

Interesting. Okay. Yeah. It's not here.

It's all other people. Other the people or

their systems. They don't see themselves as a part of

the system, the systemic nature of their organization, that's

not working. Right.

Have you also seen or if you haven't, is it plausible

that. It'S a. Reflection of how

they see the world? Right. Like, this is just the way

the world is. They're not a perpetrator of it. It's

just the way things are. Not even it

is what it is. Because I think to some extent people acknowledge something's wrong, but

it can't get better, it can't be fixed. But they're just saying when people

say, yeah, the world's just a hard place,

and I'm not here to say that there aren't some hard ships and

negative things. Well, that's one of the categories of

pain, right? Right. But you're going to find what you're looking for

sort of thing, right? If you're looking for hardship all over

the place and you're a leader, which means you have a disproportionate influence

on an organization, if you're looking for

hardship, if you're looking for dysfunction, if you're. Going to

find it, yes.

So where

do you see, I guess,

what sort of damage? So they lack self awareness, there's

toxicity in it, tangibly speaking.

What is this stopping them from accomplishing? Or what sort of

pain are they inflicting on people? Because

you got leaders listening. Some may be senior leaders, hopefully they're thinking about

their own leadership, but may have a lot of people who are

reporting to that senior leadership. What impact is

it having on those people? Because as a senior leader, your job is to

accomplish things through others. Normally

I would ask a question right now back, but I know you're interviewing me,

so I'll just answer. You can hit me, I don't mind it.

So yeah. What impact does that have? I think there's a laundry

list. People

are not motivated, right? So

if we're just talking about toxic environments

in the workplace or dysfunctional environments, there's a laundry

list. People aren't motivated. Silos are

created, people hoard information.

It's very much a survival. You adopt a

survival mode. There's no trust in the

organization, people aren't thriving,

the list goes on. Yeah.

So what part then is that

leader playing? All of it.

All of it,

I guess. Then what is the responsibility of the people? Right? Because I know,

we know if you follow Maxwell, everything rises and falls on leadership,

all those sorts of things. And I don't necessarily disagree,

but something I've been thinking about, and I know, again, you're not interviewing me.

I'll do my own podcast by myself and I'll interview myself, but

something I think about within, and it came about because of the context

of the church, because I work in a church as well,

is thinking about the dynamic between

a pastor and the people listening, or even just a

leader. There is those being

led do play a part in bringing out

the best in their leader, and that leader brings out the best in them. It

is a little reciprocal like you hear really engaged

audiences typically are on the receiving end

of a better message, speech,

presentation, what have you. I think a lot of people ascribe that

to the speech was so dang good that the people got

engaged. But it needs to be good. But the crowd

has to be good and together they actually amp each other

up for sure. What do you say to that leader

who is reporting up and while the senior leader is reporting down?

What's their responsibility to try to change the

environment or even try to lead upwards in that.

Yeah. So let me give some clarity. Senior

leaders for their whole organization or it could be a mid level manager

for their department or their division. When we don't

lead well we cause unnecessary

pain and challenge in

the lives in the arena that we influence. Okay

so that's a piece you're asking now.

Well let's say I'm in that organization or I'm in that division and my

leader is one who's not leading well and is

introducing unnecessary negativity

to our reality. Okay. Right.

I'm going to give just the table of

contents answer because I've got some other stuff on my mind

but that's a whole thing. How do we lead from the

middle is a monstrous

topic. But I will say this. I guess

one answer I would give is

what does good leadership look like for you

today? That would be my answer to that middle manager. If a middle manager

called me and said my boss sucks all this, I would say, okay, what does

good leadership look like for you today with the people you're leading

and the power dynamics and the politics and the

hierarchy is going to influence to what degree we can

realistically manage up.

Right. There are some situations you just can't fix up

in the organization and so you've got to just weigh

pros and cons is this a place I stay and continue to do my

thing or is this a place do I start looking elsewhere?

That's my short answer. No. Then that does

make sense because you can only affect so much change.

Right. You can't force people into change, especially change

that maybe they don't even think they need to make that's the hardest. One right

to that. I've seen middle managers

beat their heads against the wall because they've tried that know,

changing up and we can read all the

motivational stuff we want to read. There are some

situations you've got to make a move.

Henry Cloud has a book out called Necessary Endings. I

mean there is a time to switch gears if

you're in that kind of an environment. Absolutely.

Yeah. I think that's a great point. That's a move I've had

to make before is I could no longer affect

change upward and so I had to go

outward to find a different path.

So I certainly do support that. Obviously not as like a

first resort, right, is see what you can do to leverage your

own leadership. Something I do want to hit on before we

change gears is in the realm

of the example you've brought forward with this pastor,

I don't disagree that he's going to leave a lot of there's a lot of

pain now and grief and things like that. And

certainly my prayers are with the family, with the

congregation. That's horrific and that's hard

and you can't make sense of it, right? And in the show notes,

I am going to include a phone number for the suicide prevention

hotline. So if anybody's dealing with those sorts of thoughts or know somebody

who is, that you reach out and you get help. And

to that end, though, when we do become those

senior leaders and we are lacking self awareness,

I have seen and I know I've been in

this position, is you sit in a certain seat

and people don't want to tell

you the truth. In some cases, right,

even laterally or even like, let's say a CEO

down to one of their VPs, sometimes that doesn't happen.

There's a lack of honesty. There can also be an

assumption. So in a lot of pastors cases, because this

is something I've had some conversations with different people in the faith community

about, is when you're

the most senior person, you can get isolated

pretty quickly where you don't feel you

can ask for help. And people aren't thinking you need it because they go to

you for help, they go to you for answers, they go to you

for guidance, because you've got it all together,

right? So you're left feeling like you're on an

island. And I do think then you tell yourself that

story enough times and you end up in a

pretty dark place, right?

That's another form of unnecessary pain.

You don't have to get there, but you're right, you can and many

do. So then

let's shift gears from the middle manager and let's talk to those senior

leaders, maybe even that most senior leader, CEO,

founder, pastor, whoever that might be,

what do you coach them on so that

they can live in reality? Because reality

typically you can be delusional in either

direction. Things are much worse than they are, based on our example,

right? Things are much better than they are or you're much better than

you think you are, right? And that's when you get a little too big for

your britches, as my parents would say.

How can these senior leaders find those spaces

where they're not being propped up

and basically lied to, but people are

compassionately telling them the truth

and creating space so that they can be honest

about what they're dealing with as well. Because

as a leader, sometimes it's scary to admit you don't know what you're doing

or you don't understand something, because what if somebody takes all that away from

you? Great question, Kenny.

I could talk a lot about this, but I'll go pretty quickly through a couple

of thoughts. Number one is our

security in our relationship with the Creator of heaven and Earth.

Every form of insecurity and pride

always stems from we don't know who we are. We

don't know we're loved infinitely unconditionally,

and just being at peace about that, when we let

the fact that we're loved by God really get

into our soul, into the bottom of our feet,

we're at peace. We're at peace. We don't need the

approval of man. We don't need success.

We're known and loved by God. So that's first.

I go on and on and on about that. I know that's easier

said than done, but it is possible. We've got to

prioritize that fellowship with God and live from that place

of peace. Number two,

if we're married, a good marriage helps with

that. Kenny, I know you're married. You've been married for a while.

I've been married for 18 years. Listen, my wife's

not impressed with me, right?

Same she is. On one hand, don't get me

wrong, she loves and respects me. But

however I can come across or perform in the external world,

my wife knows who I am. So a good

marriage helps

with keeping a person in reality.

The underlying highlight bold, italicized words. There is good

marriage, okay? A healthy

marriage, because you can be just as delusional in a

marriage that you're not the problem, right?

It's the other person. So I'm talking about a

healthy marriage can help a person,

man or woman, stay grounded.

Number two or number three, what is your

relationship like with your children? No matter the age

515, 35? That

can be an indicator of what kind of leader we are,

is what kind of relationship do we have with our children. If we have

four children and I'm a leader and I don't have a

quality relationship with any of them,

like, here's your sign. Here's your sign,

okay? Because they're getting you at your most

unfiltered. Correct? And again, they're not

impressed with you. They're not impressed with you.

Look at those relationships with your children. Listen,

everyone not everyone. There can be wayward children.

So this isn't about legalism,

okay? But these are

areas of our life. What's my relationship with God like? What's

my relationship with my wife like, what's my relationship with my children like?

If there's fractures in all of that, like noticeably fractures,

that's a warning sign that no matter how

skillful I am and whatever, I probably have some

areas in me that's

negatively impacting other people. And

I'm living in law, law land. If I think all of a sudden I can

whip it into shape at a company and that

everything's. Merry no, life doesn't

work like that. Yeah, that's what

one of my pastors would say. If

it's not working at home, don't export.

Know, sam Sam said that to me a long time ago,

and it always makes me how how am I showing

up at home? And if it's not working there,

then don't export it. But also, if it's not

working at home, don't lie to yourself and think that it is working

at work because. Those people

are the problem. These kids and my wife, they just don't get it. These people

at work get it. What it is is like going back to

earlier. What it is, is at work, you have

power over people's livelihood and

they might not be telling you the truth

or reacting in a vulnerable way.

They're mining their P's and Q's, trying to keep their job. So those

are ways I'll stop there. We could keep going, but those

are ways we can monitor ourselves

as leaders. Right. And if I

understand you correctly, if we can engage

in those practices, if we can live in reality,

if we can constantly, no relationship is perfect,

but have healthy relationships, right? Healthy doesn't mean

perfect, then we really can

take back that second type, that unavoidable

or that avoidable type of pain, that unnecessary kind

of pain. Right. Because we can't do anything about

the tragic right. Storms of life, things,

disease, all this stuff happens. The necessary pain for

growth we should be leaning into. And actually, it sounds like if we

lean into that one there you go. Number two will lessen. If we increase

number one necessary pain, we'll decrease number

two. And then we just have to make peace with the know as like

the Serenity prayer. We make peace with the things we cannot

change. Yeah, that's a good insight there, Kenny. Oh, I wanted to

say one more thing. You were asking, like, how do we grow? Another thing are

these peer advisory groups? Now, those can

devolve into

an echo chamber for sure. So you got to be careful

about then. So that's one category. Another one

would be just executive coaching. A good executive coach

is going to ask you the hard questions.

So I can't encourage that enough.

Yeah, 100%. Obviously, as

my profession and yours, we would like people

to engage in that. But I say that having engaged in

it and you've engaged in it yourself.

Yeah, and we still do. Right. Like, we advocate for coaching whilst

we're receiving it is even though an executive

may be paying that person right. They're paying their employees, but they may

be paying a coach, that coach doesn't experience that power

dynamic. Correct. That an employee might right.

Like a team member lower down the ladder. And so

it removes a barrier to challenge assumptions, to

challenge their perspective on reality. Right.

But not in a mean spirited, I'm smart, you're

dumb sort of way. But for that leader's

benefit to grow just like a coach telling

a team sports coach is saying, hey, we're about to run some

laps, we're going to do some push ups. We're going to run this drill three

more times. And you're already just dog tired

doing it. So that when you are dog tired in the game, you have that

muscle memory and that pain pays off. Yeah,

exactly. Or, hey, I know you've

ran that play every game and you're owing four right

now. Right. Maybe we

change it up exactly where. People on the

team might not feel comfortable questioning the coach's game

plan. So coming from the outside saying, I can

question the game plan again, not in a critical way, but just

say, hey, you're in it. So you might have some blinders

on. I'm outside. I'm just seeing some glaring connections

here. Think about them, right?

Absolutely. I'm going to

keep thinking about this, but just thinking through those types of

pain, because we are I mean, if you boil a lot of things down,

we're pain avoidant and pleasure seeking.

And oftentimes we need discernment to know the

difference between which types we need to engage in and which types we need

to minimize and actually aren't for our long term

good as opposed to that's. Right. And we need to learn how to

transform some areas in our life

that we've associated with pain. Therefore,

to avoid, we've got to transform that and actually begin to see that

as a pleasure. And I'm not talking about in some extreme way,

but discipline,

discomfort, the unknown, ambiguity, some of these things

that we might retreat from, we've got to learn to say these are actually good

things and signs that might be on the right

track. Yeah. That reminds me

of a quote. It's one of my favorites. It's from

Father Richard Rohr, and he says that if you

don't transform your pain, you will transmit

it. Okay. And so that same way

of we've associated these different things that may have been

painful, but if we don't heal from

traumas from these other things, we're going to end up

perpetuating. We're going to inflict that unnecessary

pain on those around us whether we mean to

or not. Right. So that going full circle.

That's probably your best word right there, Kenny, to your mid level

managers, right. You've got a toxic

boss, whatever. What are you doing to transform your

environment, to not let that keep going through you into your

division? Yeah, that's

good. And I know you said you had

many different things, but I do want to leave

the people. It sounds like we need to have our own miniseries

here, but what would

you tell leader? Whether it's senior, mid level could be multiple.

But if somebody wants to start thinking this way,

right. They're growth minded, they're healing, they're

healthy. Right. And maybe how to have a

healthy relationship with pain. Right.

What can they do in the next 24 hours to just

take that step of action? Right. Because we can listen to

this, and somebody may be listening. You're driving. I always want to mess with people

and go take the next right, see what they did. They're like

how did he know?

But I believe that if we listen to these things and it's

saying something to us, we need to marry it with a response

and an action quickly. And it doesn't have to be

everything all at once. I agree. What do you say to

that leader who needs to take that first step so that they can take the

second, third and fourth? Okay, I'm going to throw out a few

options for a first step because all this could hit people in different ways. And

I'm not going to cover it all here, but here are a few options.

One option would be tonight, this afternoon,

tomorrow morning, whenever.

Write down any close

relationships you're in. Personal,

professional. Is there friction?

Is there friction? That's an area to explore.

You can learn something about that area of friction.

Most likely there is

something for you to learn about, something about your self

awareness that's off. Right. Do they need to name

that? Not just like spouse? Yes, friction.

Okay. Do they good. That friction. Be as

detailed as possible about it. Like, what is the friction? What

is the battle? What are the opposing forces taking

place? Be as specific as possible and then

try to find a trusted person,

whether it be your friend, family, whatever, a coworker, boss

or an executive coach. Reach out to someone and say,

I want to talk about this. And don't

fool yourself that you've got the wherewithal to sort it all out

on your own. Right. Because if you did, you would

have right, okay. So

get help. So that's one takeaway. Another

takeaway is if in the last year you haven't taken some type

of an assessment, self awareness assessment, and there's a lot of different

kinds. I would sign

up for one, take an assessment and have someone, an

outsider debrief you on that. That would be a great starting point if you haven't

done some self awareness work in a while.

If somebody hasn't in a long time, or maybe they never

have, what's a good assessment you'd recommend? That's just

low barrier to entry. Because I know, obviously you and I know some of these

can get fairly complex and or expensive. What's a simple one

that someone could get started with? So I have to say, of course I do

this, so you can always go to my website, leadtandem.com, and reach out

to me and maybe I give a discount or something for any

Kenny Lang How Leaders Think podcast people.

But you can always go online for free and

probably do like a Myers

Briggs or a Disc. And that's a

good starting point. But again, the power, I'm going to really

challenge folks to go one step further. The power is in having an

outsider who knows the tool debrief you on it. That's where

the power is. Yeah, absolutely.

And I know, like, you sent me yours, the OAD

and going through that and the way that. That came out.

The nice thing is if you think you're super smart and you're going to outwit

it, that that particular one is hard to do

and the results are shockingly and sometimes

rudely accurate, as a friend of mine might say. Almost got you

to spit the water.

That would have been the first spit take for the show.

But those are a couple. So y'all have heard a couple of great assessments. Get

out there. You can check out Kevin's website and reach out to him, which

we will get all the links to his website in the show. Notes but

Disc, Myers Briggs are two of the most popular. But do

like Kevin said and grab somebody who

understands the tool, maybe certified on it, or is just a really

experienced coach who understands the tool to help go

over it with you so that there can be an honest conversation and

you don't misinterpret it because you can't see past yourself.

Right, good. So, yeah, I think those are two very

practical things people could do within. 24 hours,

which are fantastic and there's tons

more, so don't get caught in the assessment rabbit hole.

So Kevin, if people want to know more about

you, obviously you gave the lead tandem.com. But if people want to know more about

you or connect with you, where is the best place to find

you to see more of what you're doing and any of your content?

Our two websites, Leadtandem.com and then

Expressprostraining.com

and LinkedIn is probably the best catch all

is my LinkedIn profile. People can message me

there, they can see different posts. We've done

links to our website, so that's probably the

lowest, that's the easiest way to connect

gotcha. And we will have a link so that y'all can reach out and

follow or send Kevin a connection request there on

LinkedIn. I highly recommend it. You'll learn something

which is always beneficial. And just

briefly, the difference for people, if they're curious,

lead tandem in your company there really focuses

on those senior leadership, team members and

teams as a whole, and executive coaching, whereas the Express Pros

trainings focused on that mid level frontline managers that

need the training. So they complement but

have very different audiences. So for you, even if you are a mid level

manager and you're seeking some training or something, especially if you're here in the

East Texas area, that's definitely a

fantastic place to start looking to level up your skills.

Because most people get their first management position in their early mid

thirty s and get their first training in their early mid 40s.

Right. Trying to close that ten year gap.

We are trying to be the resource for organizations to help with

that. Exactly. Yeah. Either way. And

Kenny, we're super excited that you're on the team,

man. Yeah, I didn't want to be self promotional.

It sounds weird if I'm being self promotional on well, I'm promoting Show. There

we go. But, yes, you will see my face on

there, getting a chance to really help some people

and leverage my skills to benefit my community.

So it feels fantastic and meeting some great people in the meantime.

Yes, and there's some other excellent leaders on that page, too,

that I highly recommend you go and follow them on LinkedIn and connect with them

because they're putting out great stuff and they're brilliant thinkers as well.

So before we hang up and say

goodbye and all that other stuff, I do want to reiterate for the listeners,

if you are dealing with suicidal thoughts or

ideation or anything like that, you can call the hotline

number in the show notes. Seek counseling,

professional help in counseling. I have sought out the help.

I have had those dark thoughts and those dark moments and I

had to go outside of myself and outside of my circle to get that

help. So please do that

and tell a friend. Bring somebody in that you really can trust, that you

can be open and honest with and that will just love you. Non

judgmentally in that space. And

then I was trying to think there was one other thing, but

I do appreciate you coming on the show, Kevin. This was great. This

is a rich conversation. I think there's a lot more here that maybe we need

to keep the conversation rolling. But if anybody

listening, if you have questions, if this has sparked something for

you, leave a comment on social

media. Keep it rolling. Kevin and I are on pretty

regularly on LinkedIn and other places and we will respond and

it won't be from a robot or even an assistant.

You're going to get a real answer and we'll engage. And maybe we don't have

the answers, maybe we have our own questions that you sparked something for. But Kevin,

appreciate you coming on the show and hope to have you back again in the

future. Thanks, Kenny.