How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Jonathan Goode [00:00:00]:
What reading can do is point you to a true north, what could be, what should be, all those different things. But it's not until you get into the application of the thing and actually have to make the hard decisions and have to take the big risk. It's not so you get to that place and you walk through it, that you get to actually develop and grow as a leader.

Kenny Lange [00:00:27]:
Welcome to the how leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Jonathan.

Jonathan Goode [00:00:38]:
Good.

Kenny Lange [00:00:38]:
Draw it out. It'll do you good.

Jonathan Goode [00:00:41]:
Ha.

Kenny Lange [00:00:42]:
Do you good, man. I just made that on the fly. Good. It's. The pieces are all there. I'm digging it.

Jonathan Goode [00:00:47]:
Oh, good. This is great.

Kenny Lange [00:00:50]:
We're going to keep all this in.

Jonathan Goode [00:00:53]:
Good.

Kenny Lange [00:00:54]:
As he's known to his friends is a passionate leader, a Bible teacher, strategic thinker, father and husband. He holds a bachelor's in political science, which is interesting, from Georgia State University and a master's in theological studies at Beeson divinity school. Good is highly motivated to help as many Jesus followers as possible discover how they can shine their unique light in the world around them, which is amazing. Welcome to the show.

Jonathan Goode [00:01:22]:
Good. Well, I am glad to be here. I have a degree in politics and a degree in religion, so we get to talk about topics that probably are the ones you're not supposed to talk about. So it's exciting. It's exciting to be here. Also, I like pro wrestling. I don't know if I should say that on the front end for people who are looking for how leaders think so, but I do. So I'm just confessing.

Jonathan Goode [00:01:45]:
It's confession time. We're all together, and. That's right.

Kenny Lange [00:01:48]:
I think you just created the world's weirdest Venn diagram.

Jonathan Goode [00:01:52]:
That's good. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:01:53]:
Politics, biblical studies, and pro wrestling.

Jonathan Goode [00:01:57]:
Yeah. And I get so much grief from people about liking pro wrestling. And then they watch, like, you know, the real housewives of wherever, or they watch, like, the bachelor, and I'm like, mine is just as fake as yours. At least I get some fun, athletic, you know, stuff thrown in there.

Kenny Lange [00:02:16]:
Yeah. Sometimes people are cooking some things, and it's so life like. You could smell it.

Jonathan Goode [00:02:21]:
Oh, come on. I love that. Like, kind of a deep cut there with the rock. That's great.

Kenny Lange [00:02:26]:
Yeah, that's just. That's the bottom line.

Jonathan Goode [00:02:29]:
Yeah. Because Stone Cold said some, like, which when I'm running, this is.

Kenny Lange [00:02:33]:
Yeah, I just. I have a bracelet. WWJD and. And that's the bottom line, because Stone Cold said so.

Jonathan Goode [00:02:40]:
They just wear them hand in hand. It works really, really great. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:02:44]:
It's the two real, like, guiding lights and boundaries for my life.

Jonathan Goode [00:02:48]:
Absolutely.

Kenny Lange [00:02:49]:
Stone cold, Jesus Christ. All right, well, tell me. Good. What is on your mind?

Jonathan Goode [00:02:56]:
Yeah. So I am just deeply convicted that there is, you know, I know a lot of people who are professing christians. I'm assuming a lot of people who listen to your podcast are professing christians. They might not be, you know, as open or not open about that, but just have this belief that there's a God out there. And then his son came and lived and he died and he rose again for us and that we find such life and hope, and that's why people go to church and all that different stuff, and we're pretty good at paying attention to preaching and those kind of things. But there's this life that comes from action that I think sometimes gets lost when people think of faith, that there's this transformation that begins to happen, and you hear it when somebody goes to serve the halls and they say, gosh, that helped me more than it helped them. That's a common refrain. But when it comes to faith, it feels like that has been kind of a closed part of discipleship and subsequently has caused people to not, I think, experience the fullness of following Christmas Christ.

Jonathan Goode [00:04:13]:
And so that's been on my mind today. It's been on my mind the last few weeks. It's probably not the direct thing that we were going to talk about today, but it's definitely been what's been hanging on my mind today. And it plays into the work I'm able to do with the worksheet, which we'll, I guess, talk about a little later.

Kenny Lange [00:04:33]:
We will. I find that really intriguing. And that's a conversation I've had with a lot of people. And it's, whether I've explicitly said it, it has been a guiding notion of my journey and my walk in faith, especially over probably the last 20 years of, hey, all this reading in the Bible is good, and you should read your Bible if you're a professing Christian or that's part of your walk or your belief is read the book. As I tell people, read the Bible. It'll bless you. But we get to a place much like leadership, and I'm not doing this as like a false tie in, but the notion of action and application being missing from the lives we're leading and the work that we do, whatever it may be that is gloriously absent, but it's the missing piece to a full, rich and rewarding life. I just see that as being a universal because so many people know way more scripture than they actually live.

Kenny Lange [00:05:46]:
They know way more. They've read way more leadership books and listen to podcasts and everything than they ever think to practice. And if all you're doing is consuming knowledge without action, you know, there's no transit was information without application doesn't lead to transformation. Something along those lines.

Jonathan Goode [00:06:07]:
Yeah. And I think you're right. And there is that interesting place where I think people of faith and leadership principles really do align. Well, you know, you think about it from a, from a faith standpoint, and you can pick the Old Testament, so you can include a broader number of people who subscribe to that. But, you know, there's this famous passage about Moses sort of leading the people out and the Red Sea parting and them sort of walking through it. And we see that. And I think sometimes all we think about as well, like, it's a big deal, like the sea party, but you don't think about the experience of the person walking through it. What in the world did it feel like to have two walls of water on either side of your face? What in the world did it feel like to be walking on ground that had been underwater for that amount of time? How soft it must have felt and how, like, when you're walking through it, was it just muddy or sandy or what, what was the, what was the sort of feeling of it? Well, the same principles apply to leadership.

Jonathan Goode [00:07:08]:
Like, I've read more leadership books than I care to count. But the real, like, capability of a person who's leading doesn't grow in reading. It grows in practicing. What reading can do is point you to a true, true north, what could be, what should be, all those different things. But it's not until you get into the application of the thing and actually have to make the hard decisions and have to take the big risk or whatever. It's not. So you get to that place and you walk through it, that you get to actually develop and grow as a leader. Unfortunately, leaders like people in the faith.

Jonathan Goode [00:07:49]:
We use live ammo and we have to walk through our life or walk through our leadership shooting off live ammo, which. And sometimes we shoot at the wrong direction. And that's just, that's just part of it, right? It's.

Kenny Lange [00:08:06]:
It's like never, you know, I'm a huge sports fanatic, and, you know, you look at these athletes who, they show up for game day, but could you imagine if they were, if they were never showing up to practice and. And all they. All they had was, you know, they read some books, they. Maybe they worked out a couple times. Right. Watched a couple of YouTube videos, and then they showed up for a championship game. Like, that's. That's gonna be disastrous.

Jonathan Goode [00:08:39]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:08:41]:
Because I'm of the belief that faith, like leadership, you end up in these bigger moments. They will happen, and they will come. It's not the most common occurrence. Right. Because if they were, then they wouldn't be big or momentous. But I heard someone say once that luck is just a preparation meeting opportunity. And when we practice, then when these bigger moments come, we actually are prepared to step into the. And do the right thing or maybe carry the burden better or more effectively.

Kenny Lange [00:09:26]:
I'd be curious, in your observation, what do you see as the current thinking or prevailing wisdom around the action or the act of practicing your faith or practicing your leadership? Because when I hear this or I talk to people about it, and maybe you do hear this, too, is, oh, yeah, absolutely. Naturally, that would be like, it feels like a blinding flash of the obvious, but if it was so obvious, then everybody would be doing it. But I don't think that they are. And that's. And that's what I hear you saying. So what's the prevailing wisdom that other people are subscribing to or living from?

Jonathan Goode [00:10:07]:
I think a lot of people are just trying to make it through the day, and I think that. So when you start talking about some of these deeper concepts of sort of living with intentionality, like choosing action from an intentional standpoint, whether it's in leadership or in your faith, if you're fried out and you're just burned and you're kind of running on e, whether it's your faith or your life or your leadership, whatever, it's almost like sometimes I feel like people. I think the prevailing wisdom is I don't have the energy. I think that's really the prevailing wisdom for a lot of people. I think that's where a lot of people live. And so when you see someone that looks like they're diving deep or when you see someone that looks like they're taking risks or when you see someone who makes a decision to do something super sacrificial, for instance, I know you have done foster care in the past, so, like, I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say to someone who does foster care, oh, my gosh, that's so good. Like, man, you're good. Wow.

Jonathan Goode [00:11:19]:
Like, wish I could do it. And you want to look and say, like, you can. It was really disruptive to me. It was really disruptive to my wife. It threw my life upside down. But there was something about you that was willing to do it and something, I think about a lot of other people, that they admire it, they see it as a positive, and yet the translation between their life and action. Sometimes their world feels so big and so overwhelming that it makes it really hard to think about adding something that's disruptive. I think that's true in leadership.

Jonathan Goode [00:12:03]:
I think it's true in faith.

Kenny Lange [00:12:06]:
I would agree with that. Yeah. My wife and I do hear that quite a bit. Along with, I could never do that. I'd get too attached and we have to go.

Jonathan Goode [00:12:15]:
That's the point. But think about that. Like, that is such a. It's a what you just said, I'll get to attach. I couldn't hand them back. Like, that's a. That there's a principle of faith in that, and there's a principle of, like, leadership in that. So from a faith standpoint, like, that is true love.

Jonathan Goode [00:12:38]:
That is laying down your life and your own desires. Because in foster care, the target is give the child back to the biological parents. That's the goal. That's what you go with and you accept, which means you have to willingly give yourself to someone, become willingly attached so that they can hopefully hurt you as they go away to their parents. That is a painful process, but that. That's sacrificial love. That's when you say, I'm going to put your needs over mine. I'm going to put your well being over mine.

Jonathan Goode [00:13:07]:
But the same is true in leadership. A lot of times, leadership calls you to do things that are super uncomfortable and really hard and make you feel. I mean, like, when a senior leader of an organization has to fire some. Yeah, like, that's tough. And hopefully, if you have a heart, you care about it. But, like, that's a tough thing. It might be what's called for in your organization. Or when a win a.

Jonathan Goode [00:13:37]:
When a senior leader feels like, this is something I've felt before, someone else who I'm serving with, working with, whatever, I really like them and I really respect them and I don't agree with them and they're passionate about something, and I have to choose to make them upset with me. But being a leader that wants to lead, well, I'm not choosing that because I'm arrogantly controlling the situation. I'm sort of willing to lay down my need for you to like me so that I can do what's best in this situation.

Kenny Lange [00:14:15]:
Right. Which, again, I think goes back to the energy, like, am I willing to break the inertia of my life? Something I'd be curious. Your take on what you've described is you look at somebody who's doing something, like you said, going deep, doing something that seems like maybe it's over and above, outside of the normal, just day to day needs or necessities of life. Is they. Are they telling themselves a story? And is a little bit of a leading question, but telling themselves a story that, oh, they have a thing I don't. Or must be nice to have all this free time or all this money or all that, or whatever it is they perceive they lack and this other person has, and that's what enables them to live out this thing that they would like to, but it seems out of reach for them. Do you think that there's a story going on there? And if so, why is it so. So powerful?

Jonathan Goode [00:15:24]:
Yeah. So can I answer that question with, like, a real example?

Kenny Lange [00:15:29]:
Absolutely.

Jonathan Goode [00:15:30]:
Okay. So I currently live in Atlanta. Atlanta, Georgia. I am preparing with my wife and three kids. We're going to move two and a half hours south of here to a small town that we have three kids that are almost seven, almost five and almost one. And for a lot of reasons, we started sorting through what it would look like to sell our house and be able to move. Well, in that conversation, someone offered us the ability to rent a farmhouse on 49 acres of land. So moving from inside this city of Atlanta to 49 acres of land in rural Georgia, we've decided to say yes, and we're going to take that up.

Jonathan Goode [00:16:15]:
So, as we've been telling people that we're going to do this, the number of people that have said to us, gosh, it must be nice to get off the hamster wheel. Must be nice. Must be nice to get off the hamster wheel. And to look at them and say, they're educated, they're hardworking, they have significant financial margin. They could get off the hamster wheel, too. But the disruption that that causes, the change that that brings is so overwhelming that the idea of even thinking about it, whether they like their life now or not, the change and the disruption that comes with that, is so much to consider, that when people start to go down that road, it's like, no, no, I can't. And so I think that the reality is that we don't like change as people. We don't naturally like it when change is forced on us, and so very few of us want to willingly take it on.

Jonathan Goode [00:17:18]:
So when you're like, hey, I don't like it when you had me change. Like, stuff I can't control. So the likelihood of me choosing to walk through change in a willing way is also slim because people just don't like, it's heavy. I mean, it's heavy. I talked to someone earlier today who's going through a crisis in their relationship with their spouse, and they said to me, like, I know we need to talk to someone. I just don't want to do the work.

Kenny Lange [00:17:51]:
Wow.

Jonathan Goode [00:17:53]:
Like, I think that's what I. That's what I mean when I say, like, people are so overwhelmed and we live lives that are so stretched to the margins. We have calendars that are so stretched to the margins that we don't have time to breathe. And the idea of even putting time in there to breathe, to sort out challenges, seems overwhelmed.

Kenny Lange [00:18:14]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One. Sorry to hear about your friend offline. Probably pray for them, but that really resonates. Funny enough, I'm coming up as we record this on spring break for my kids. And I told my wife at the end of last year, I said, I want to make sure that the way that we run the business is a way that includes our family, that takes that into account, that is really built to give us a life we can enjoy while we're building it. Some things will be hard. One of those times that all of our kids are available to us is spring break.

Kenny Lange [00:18:59]:
I have had the craziest calendar schedule since January 1. I did not anticipate that, but I took off on a rocket ship, and it's been really good, but it's had me stretched from, you know, the time I get up until late at night almost every day, and I'm looking forward to it. But at the same time, I'm thinking maybe I could open some of that up and get some of these calls in and make some progress. But the other side of it is, I know I need it to create, like you said, the margin to think, to process, to decompress, to hear from God, to just enjoy relationships. Because I don't know that I could have spelled that word over the last three months or those words. It might have something to do with the fact I was homeschooled through high.

Jonathan Goode [00:19:58]:
School, but.

Kenny Lange [00:20:02]:
Don'T send me your emails. Well, homeschoolers don't believe in technology, so we're probably safe. I'm an equal opportunity offender, but it resonates so deeply with me that even some small things have felt like I literally, I know this would probably be a good thing to do with my kids or to do with my wife or something else. I just don't feel like I can add one more task. So what do we do when we're going to have to have a disruption? Yeah, but what I hear you saying is, in a lot of cases, what you're seeing is people. The phrase better a devil I know than the one I don't.

Jonathan Goode [00:20:43]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:20:45]:
They are familiar with the hamster wheel. I wouldn't say comfortable with it. They are comfortable with the notion of it, more so than they are with what happens if we just fling the hamster wheel over the edge and choose something else, but we have no idea what it is.

Jonathan Goode [00:21:02]:
Yeah. So, so I think. I think on a practical level, I mean, like, so in my own decision to move, this may end up being a bad decision. So the worst case scenario, though, for us is this becomes, hey, remember that year we lived on a farm like that? That's. That's so it's. It's the. I mean, that's just like it might take. But I think also, like, for, you know, especially, again, for people from faith, because that's.

Jonathan Goode [00:21:32]:
That's the way I see the world. Like, what good is it to gain the world and lose your soul? I mean, I think there is a. There is a question that people who want to be whole, people, like, whole, either leaders or just people, like, has to ask. Like, how does. How does the culture and the surroundings outside of us impact the way we live our life? And is that good? Or are there ways that we need to stand against that? So I don't mean culture from, like, oh, they're making morally wrong decisions. I mean, like, in the United States or just in the. Well, mostly United States. Like, does the pace at which we move help our souls? Can our.

Jonathan Goode [00:22:23]:
Can our soul keep up with what we can do? I think that's like asking some of these deeper questions. I mean, it's interesting to me from a faith standpoint. Like, if you look at how sin came into the world, what christians would jewish people believe is that sin came in the world when Adam and Eve ate from a tree. That tree was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There was too much knowledge for their souls to handle. We live in a time where you have access to more knowledge than at any other point in the history of the world. And we go after it full blast, searching everything we can think of online, not ever asking, is this good for my soul? Is this actually good for the development and well being of my soul? And so I say that. Say, like, what good is it to gain the world if you can't sleep at night? What good is it like to gain the world if your kids don't get to hang out with you like that? That what good is it to gain the world and to have a spouse who's a roommate? Like, yeah, these are.

Jonathan Goode [00:23:45]:
These are questions, but it takes time to ask these questions. That means that you might have to go in later to the office so you can go on a walk in the woods. Like, you might have to take off an extra day so you can go maybe on a hike somewhere or be alone just in your own head. And that means you might have to be alone with your thoughts and put your phone down like that. That scares the hell out of people. And I don't know if I'm supposed to say that on here, but it does. It scares people to think about silence, real silence. And yet how, as a leader, can you make clear headed decisions? Or how, as a person of faith, can you know the steps you're supposed to take if you don't have margin to clear? Either clear your head from a leadership standpoint or hear from God from a faith standpoint.

Kenny Lange [00:24:42]:
That's really good, man. There's a lot to process and unpack there. Like, this is my own personal counseling session. The idea of silence, I've. I've told people, like, I'm, you know, grew up primarily, I have a sister, but she never lived with us. I was like, an only kid, so I've told people, like, I'm fine by myself. I'm just cool. I'm chill.

Kenny Lange [00:25:09]:
Like, I don't.

Jonathan Goode [00:25:10]:
I.

Kenny Lange [00:25:11]:
99% of what I say is for my own amusement. I don't need other people.

Jonathan Goode [00:25:15]:
You were one of those people that whenever COVID hit and everybody started social distancing, you're like, I've been social distancing for years, man. What the heck?

Kenny Lange [00:25:23]:
It's like, I'll get around, but I was like, I got other avenues, or I can. I'm fine. Just give me, you know, an Xbox controller in Halo, and I'm.

Jonathan Goode [00:25:31]:
And I'm happy.

Kenny Lange [00:25:32]:
But the. The idea of just sitting in silence, sitting with your thoughts, sitting in prayer, has. Has been a constant struggle for me. I'm usually one. I'm like, I'm just going to get it to where my brain, I can train it to move as fast as I'm going to make good decisions as I go without really pausing. And for the most part, I would venture to say I've succeeded at that. But there's a limit, right. The old what got you here won't get you there sort of situation.

Jonathan Goode [00:26:15]:
That's a good reminder to me.

Kenny Lange [00:26:18]:
You're welcome. That's free.

Jonathan Goode [00:26:19]:
Thank you.

Kenny Lange [00:26:21]:
There's a book from my coach and he and his business partner, co founders of system and soul, but they've written some other books. But one of their first was called the Clarity Field Guide, and it was about taking a clarity break. Take 30, 60, 90 minutes, and they give you a book full of questions based on maybe the season you're in. Right. Like, you might be in a real creative season. You might be in a season of just execution and getting things done, or you might be planning and putting, you know, expressing those. Those ideas. But take time to think through a couple of questions.

Kenny Lange [00:26:59]:
And the subtitle is one that that's always struck me is the answers no one else can give you. And I have. I have bought cases of this book. I give it away to clients regularly. I recommend it to other people. I pre ordered it before, like, on Amazon. You want to know? I've never sat down and taken a clarity break and actually used any of the questions in that book. I've never admitted that to anybody, which makes me feel like a hypocrite for handing it out and being like, this is really good for you.

Kenny Lange [00:27:39]:
Well, do you do it? Oh, that's not what we're talking about right now.

Jonathan Goode [00:27:42]:
This is about you. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:27:44]:
Yeah. It's like, I'm the coach, you're the client.

Jonathan Goode [00:27:48]:
But it's. But it's.

Kenny Lange [00:27:49]:
But it's because it's scary. Because sit there and I'm like, this isn't. But the other part is, it's not to me. I struggle with it doesn't feel like I'm doing anything. Sitting, thinking, processing, pray. Praying, even. Right. So I'm gonna have some people from my church text message me about this.

Kenny Lange [00:28:09]:
But even praying has been a struggle of mine in my faith, because it doesn't feel like anything.

Jonathan Goode [00:28:18]:
Yeah. And that you're not alone. And I think that's. That's what. There's other people who say that in circles of faith, we don't make it okay to say that we. Like, there's certain things that it feels like you're supposed to already be down the road on. But, like, when you think about, I mean, gosh, the story of Christ grow. The story of Christ going to the cross, one of the most powerful parts of that story.

Jonathan Goode [00:28:44]:
So he's about to go do like, the thing that is the biggest deal in his life. He's going to go lay his life down for all of us. And we're getting ready to celebrate Easter. A few weeks like this, it's a big deal, what he's going to do. And we've all hung our hats on this moment, right? So this, you could call what he's just tried to do, the greatest missionary moment in the history of the world. So he's going on this path. The night before he's to be handed over, he gets together with some of his key disciples and he wants to go pray. And he tells them to keep guard and protect him, like, keep guard, make sure he's protected while he goes off and prays.

Jonathan Goode [00:29:27]:
If you read the account of his prayers, I mean, like, his prayers are intense. I think the scriptures say he's sweating blood in the process of this. I mean, so you see somebody who, whatever they're in the process of, they're going full on board at it. So three different times, those disciples fall asleep. They couldn't know. It's not fair for us to view them in any sort of like, belittled way because they did not know what we know. We have hindsight, they didn't have it. But what was happening was that this man, who I call the son of God, was getting ready to do his most impactful work ever, and he somehow felt the need to do this thing.

Jonathan Goode [00:30:14]:
And his disciples, who had walked so closely with him, did not seem to see the power in it. So they fell asleep and. And we're the same. And it's why when we are going to grow in something like this, it has to be uncomfortable. The first time I ever did a silent retreat, first time I ever went on a silent retreat, I thought, I'm going to be good. I'm going to be holy. I packed up my. Here's my big, thick little bible.

Jonathan Goode [00:30:41]:
Here's my journal. I'm going to, like, have all this time. I was going to one that was going to last for 4 hours. I was in this beautiful, like, serene space. And I got out there for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes, I was bored out of my mind. Bored out of my mind. I was like, I could get my phone and I could just kind of make some calls while I'm out here.

Jonathan Goode [00:31:09]:
And I was thinking, like, I could go over to that spot, then nobody else in the retreat will hear me, so they'll still think I'm good in Christianity. It was eye opening. But then also that practice, I kept practicing it and I kept coming back. And about once a quarter I would go back for another four hour time. And each time I found that I wanted to stay longer. I wanted to stay longer, so much so that after a couple of years of that, I ended up proposing to my wife at that place. So like, it had such a profound impact, but I stunk at it at first. It took training, which is part of like, when leaders take risks, when people of faith won't take steps, it's because we're scared to fail.

Jonathan Goode [00:31:58]:
So we don't like try things we're not really good at. It's the same reason people don't try crossFit, because, you know, they don't want to die and they think that if they don't know how to do it, they'll die. So like, it's the same sort of principle in that regard. I knew CrossFit and I've been doing it for a couple months now and I still think I'm going to die every time I do it.

Kenny Lange [00:32:21]:
So I did it for several years, even did the festivus competition, all of that. So little known fact, for one competition for scaled men, I was ranked number 33rd in the world for a day.

Jonathan Goode [00:32:36]:
In the world. That's, that's a round of applause. That's awesome.

Kenny Lange [00:32:42]:
At lighter, much lighter weights. Keep in mind, um, so I'm all, I'm all for that. But yeah, I, I don't know. Again, I know a lot of quotes. I don't remember a lot of people. It's like I know scripture but I don't remember the reference. It gets source amnesia. But anything worth doing or anything you're going to be good at is worth sucking at first.

Kenny Lange [00:33:08]:
Just plan on being terrible at the beginning because nobody jumps out and is.

Jonathan Goode [00:33:14]:
Awesome at first, which we know that when we're kids, but I think especially for educated, wealthy and I'm going to throw anybody in the middle class in the United States as in the wealthy category, because you are from a global perspective, you definitely are. But for people who are wealthy, maybe good in their careers, have some track record of success, however you define that willingly throwing yourself into places that you have no idea what you're doing is something that I feel like I've seen over time. People are less willing to do that unless they practice it.

Kenny Lange [00:33:57]:
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It definitely is a practice. I mean, there's, I started two companies and I've done some other things and I won't necessarily say it gets easier, but the stutter stepping at the beginning gets less and less each time. But I did find that I had to keep trying to find those new things that scared the bejesus out of me and do those over and over to where I could. It's like a muscle, right? And that's what I try to encourage people. That's why I'm huge. Like, why? When you bring up action and practice, it's like there's so much that you actually can feed more information into your body, into your mind, into your emotions from just taking action. Because action creates these feedback loops of, oh, I did a thing, I learned a thing.

Kenny Lange [00:34:59]:
I did a thing, I learned a thing. And I get to iterate over and over instead of, well, did I learn everything that, you know, the whole of human history has to teach me about this before I got started.

Jonathan Goode [00:35:11]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:35:13]:
You know, it's like people talking about, if you wait until you're ready to, you know, start a business, get married, have children, if you wait until you're ready, you'll never do it.

Jonathan Goode [00:35:21]:
Yeah, you're. Yeah, you are exactly right. You have to be willing to learn with live ammo. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:35:28]:
Which is terrifying, but, yeah, it also makes you feel alive.

Jonathan Goode [00:35:31]:
It does.

Kenny Lange [00:35:34]:
What, as people are thinking about, hey, what am I stepping out into? How am I creating margin for my soul? What is the pace that I'm going at to get clarity on what even is the right thing to do? Cause I've heard. I've heard you describe, there's a couple of things. There's, what's the right thing to do? And then should I go do it or do I. Do I not, should I? But do I have the courage to disrupt my current routine and practice and way of living in order to take a step towards a new thing? How do you encourage leaders to process through clarity on the decision and courage to take the step?

Jonathan Goode [00:36:24]:
So I think it depends on where they are in their leadership journey or in their journey of faith or whatever. But, I mean, it's simple thing to encourage just about any american that there's some people that won't offer one thing. There'll be a handful of people that are like, yeah, I already practiced that. Okay, good. You don't need this. So this is not for you. For the rest of people, when was the last time you took a 1 hour walk without your phone and without an agenda? Just a walk. Just go take a walk by yourself.

Jonathan Goode [00:37:01]:
Not a run, not an exercise. Go slow. But when was the last time you said, I'm just going to go out for 1 hour, I'm going to be outside and I don't have an ulterior purpose here. Like, I'm not, yeah, I'm getting out, but I'm getting out to get my exercise in. Like, that's still being productive. When, when, when was the last time you separated from technology? Not even, not even listening to a podcast, not listening to music. Headphones out, no phone. Take off your little watch.

Jonathan Goode [00:37:39]:
Your heart's probably not going to explode within that hour, so you won't need to call 911 or whatever. Maybe you will, but it'll be okay for you to try it for a little while. But like, to disconnect from technology into simply go be alone outside for an hour. That's, that is the one step. If I, if I could encourage people to do stuff, I mean, I've got a group of friends and anytime one of us has kind of like we're in a crunch, we will all take off for one day of work. So this happens a couple times a year, but we'll take off for one day work and we'll just go on a hike. And there's no plan. Um, but it just gives us space to be together as friends and to talk.

Jonathan Goode [00:38:33]:
And we end up processing so much of life just because we finally have the space, the space away from our kids and our families and our work and all the good stuff in our life that we love. But sometimes you need room to breathe. So an hour, I'd say 1 hour outside, no technology. If you want to take a friend with you, you can, but you're not allowed to talk about anything. That's not important. So no talking about the baseball game or whatever. I prefer you do it alone.

Kenny Lange [00:39:02]:
Yeah, start. Yeah, start alone. And then you can be alone together.

Jonathan Goode [00:39:08]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:39:10]:
That, uh, that could be in a song. Um.

Jonathan Goode [00:39:13]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:39:16]:
Uh, or you could think of, uh, was it the, the end of the first lord of the Rings? I think it's the first one. And, uh, you know, Frodo's casting off and going, he's like, I've got to do it alone. And sam goes, well, I'll do it with you. I'll be alone with you.

Jonathan Goode [00:39:38]:
Well, good.

Kenny Lange [00:39:39]:
I almost said Jonathan. I just, I want to lean into the Jonathan, and I'm going to keep working on that. But you mentioned earlier on orchard, and I would love for you to share just a little bit about what orchard is about, what is it doing in the world and where can people find out more about it.

Jonathan Goode [00:40:01]:
Yeah, you can go onto Orchard's website, which is m e e t, Orchard. M e t, orchardmeatarchard.org. And you can find out all about us. But we are a nonprofit that helps early phase christian nonprofits figure out how they, how to launch and lead well. So a lot of times people come to us, they have all sorts of passion, have big hearts, want to help people in their community. They do not have a clue how to do that from an organization standpoint. They don't know how to raise money. They don't know how to manage a board of directors.

Jonathan Goode [00:40:35]:
They don't know how to file paperwork with the IR's. They have no idea what insurance they're supposed to have or what sustainability looks like. There's just a million different things. We try to come alongside them and help them launch and lead those organizations. Well. So right now we have about 80 active organizations that are serving with us and we're helping them. And they are all over the world. So anywhere in the world we can help you.

Jonathan Goode [00:40:59]:
We've got some new services rolling out very soon that we're excited about and yeah, so that's what we do. So you can reach out through the website beachorchard and you can get in touch and find out maybe how we can help you.

Kenny Lange [00:41:16]:
Excellent. Also, you have a Facebook page and Instagram under the same name, meet Orchard. So please go, go, like follow, check those channels out so everybody can figure out what's going on and how they can support, even if it's just a reshare. A bit of good news. Yeah, that's going on. So I love, love that, love the work that you're doing. Enjoyed our conversation. I hope it's not our last one.

Kenny Lange [00:41:45]:
Would love to have you back. But everybody listening, if you got value from this conversation, if this is helpful to you, it would mean a lot to me. If you would like subscribe, follow whatever the right terminology is for the platform you're consuming this on. Help others find this content and find these conversations. If it helped you pay forward, help somebody else. But until next time, remember, change the way you think, change the way you lead. We'll see you.