How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Jenni Lord [00:00:00]:
I'm not going to continue to grow myself or the organization if I think it all rests on me and I can't bring others to get their help. And so, you know, I, even when we were very small and mostly surrounded with volunteers, I just learned to find the strengths and gifts at the table and ask people for, like, ask for help. So I think that that has been part of the shift in what has helped me to get here.

Kenny Lange [00:00:33]:
Welcome to the how leaders think podcast, a show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is Jenny Lord. She is the founder and CEO of chosen. She champions family healing through authentic connections. She founded the organization in 2008 and she empowers adoptive, foster, kinship and biological parents. That's all the kinds of parents there are within the child welfare system to nurture children's trauma recovery, which is desperately needed. Jenny's leadership aims to shift mindsets from scarcity to abundance and catalyzing systemic change by prioritizing the well being of children and families. Welcome to the show, Jenny.

Jenni Lord [00:01:20]:
Kenny, thank you so much for having me. If anyone is confused, this is not Jenny Lord of the chosen. We shared the name Jenny Lord of chosen original. I met somebody recently and he was like, what were you doing for like the ten years before the show went live?

Kenny Lange [00:01:41]:
Somebody merged your Wikipedia entries, so that would be really cool if you could get like a crossover. I'm not for trademark infringement, but you could probably have like a, like a come and see or some fishes on a hoodie for the organization. One year, maybe you can get Jonathan to come and do an appearance. I'm sure he would be good for it.

Jenni Lord [00:02:05]:
Sure. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:02:06]:
Hey, we're all, and they record in Texas, so they're not too far from us, so no reason why they couldn't do it. Well, Jenny, I'm excited you're here. I'm excited to talk to you. Tell me what is on your mind, man.

Jenni Lord [00:02:20]:
What is on my mind right now is transition. As an organization that has experienced tremendous amount of growth the last few years, my role is transitioning and shifting. Kenny, I know you know the system, EOS entrepreneurial operating system. I am so blessed and fortunate to have an integrator, but we have made that shift a real full time shift in the past eight months or so, and we're still working through that transition. So I have that on the brain a lot.

Kenny Lange [00:02:56]:
Yeah. The shift to have that integrator, that second in command, especially when you're the founder and you're used to being sort of what I call the chief everything officer. Right. Like, you see everything you can do, everything I believe eos talks about. Was it like letting go of the vinegar, letting go of the wine? Yeah, I have all my orange material. I just had to lock it up once I threw on the blue. So I don't know if it was a legal requirement, but it happened. But lots of great stuff.

Kenny Lange [00:03:31]:
It's huge for helping you keep focused on your mission, which is certainly something I think you write about, you talk about, but have experienced where you have that mission drift. And keeping the main thing, the main thing, especially as a nonprofit, when you're out to do good in the world, can sometimes be difficult.

Jenni Lord [00:03:53]:
Yeah, absolutely. Especially when we do have a broad space that we're working in. There's. The continuum of care is broad, and we get asked to do a lot of things and have to make those decisions, not go chasing the shiny thing to stay on point. We're focused on fulfilling the vision that we have.

Kenny Lange [00:04:13]:
Right, right. I mean, but shiny objects are just so pretty. So with this transition, and you're saying that this is something that's happened fairly recently, being that you started chosen back in 2008, you've essentially sat in two seats for a pretty long time. What is that experience of letting go of the vine, of allowing the someone to help you. Right. Because you could be that self sufficient visionary doing everything. What has that experience been like for you?

Jenni Lord [00:04:50]:
Well, it's welcome for sure, and it didn't happen overnight. So we implemented eos in 2017. So it was a long time ago and have been working towards shifting accountability over with that growth that we've had. The woman who is my integrator, she's been with me for eleven years, and she's.

Kenny Lange [00:05:11]:
Oh, wow.

Jenni Lord [00:05:12]:
She's had multiple seats in the organization, so we know each other very well. She can anticipate my questions, she can finish my sentences, but she hasn't been in that integrator seat. We've been working towards that for a couple of years, but fully in it. Like I said about eight months ago, for me, I would say it's a welcome change, but it's also, you don't know what you don't know. Right. And I haven't had the freedom to fully let go and to get myself out of everything that I don't need to be involved in anymore. So as the organization's grown, certainly my delegation of authority and responsibility across multiple spaces has grown as well. But this is still new, and so it's welcome.

Jenni Lord [00:06:01]:
But I'm still learning how to do that.

Kenny Lange [00:06:04]:
Yeah, I can always. It's like, awkward delegation. So I went through that with my first business. I was like, I feel bad for asking you to do this because I've owned it for so long. I'm curious, given the transition, obviously, the growth of any organization brings about transition, involuntary transition. You're making a voluntary one. When you looked around, you're connected to other leaders, other CEO's and founders of, especially in the nonprofit space. What did you see as the current thinking or the prevailing wisdom about how to handle transitions as the founder? Really making that leap from founder to CEO?

Jenni Lord [00:06:53]:
Yeah, good question. Well, I'll go back and just qualify something that you said. You know, I said this recently on a different podcast, but good business is good business. Like, at the end of the day, being a nonprofit, like, that's just a tax status. And so I'm interested in running an excellent business and making tremendous social change. Right. So I think. I don't think about it only from the nonprofit standpoint, and I'm so fortunate to have a lot of colleagues and peers around me that are leading all sorts of different kinds of businesses to learn from their experience as well.

Jenni Lord [00:07:30]:
The other thing about it is, I don't normally introduce myself as the founder. I think founder has some negative connotations sometimes. And when I learned about founder syndrome probably ten years ago or so, and how a founder can actually be the one to impede an organization's progress, I took that very seriously. Like, I don't. The last thing I want to do is impede the mission. Right? Get out of the way of the thing that I'm trying to steer and steward, get out of the way of the progress. So, you know, I think that's an ongoing evolution, but it is recognizing that this is not Jenny's thing. This is not Jenny's company.

Jenni Lord [00:08:17]:
I don't own this. Right. The public actually owns the nonprofit. And so for me, the transition has been kind of what you. Where you started earlier? In the beginning, I was wearing every hat. I did every job until we could hire people or find people that could help support the work and that sort of mentality that it all rests on you. I think that's inherent when you're starting something, but you can't stay in that posture, really. The.

Jenni Lord [00:08:51]:
The outcomes, the tremendous impact that we're having. It's the team is the team. I can't. I can't do that by myself. So I think that's been part of the evolution is just recognizing it's not all in me to figure out how to do it. What to do. I don't know if you've had this experience, Kenny, but the older I get, the less I know.

Kenny Lange [00:09:15]:
Amen. My children make sure my children and my wife make sure. I'm very aware of my blind spots.

Jenni Lord [00:09:24]:
You know, when you're starting something, you're like, you got to figure it all out. And now it's a common thing for me to be at the leadership table saying I'm not sure. What do y'all think? Right?

Kenny Lange [00:09:36]:
Yeah.

Jenni Lord [00:09:37]:
Drawing from the strengths that are at the table.

Kenny Lange [00:09:39]:
Yeah. What's the quote from Steve Jobs is that we don't hire smart people and tell them what to do. We hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.

Jenni Lord [00:09:50]:
Right.

Kenny Lange [00:09:51]:
Yeah. And especially as you start to get more specialized as an organization grows, and I would love for you to talk a little bit about your organization and some of the ways that you specialize. Obviously, we mentioned all the different types of parents and family structures that you're impacting. But as the specialization grows, my experience was it became harder and harder for me as a founder, as a leader and owner to stay sharp on all of these different things that the clients and the end user, the in person needed from me. And I couldn't be the all things to all people anymore. How did you go about sourcing and identifying those specialists that now sit at your leadership table that can inform you about, well, here's what current research says, or here's what the state or the federal government is finding or mandating now, right?

Jenni Lord [00:10:56]:
Yeah. So it starts with culture, right? It starts with culture. I like that stuff. Statement that says culture, eat strategy for lunch. We have a special culture here and we have a special. I would say that within that is also how we do things, how we're approaching the work. And our focus is on not just the child welfare, the safety of the child, but also the well being of the family and looking at the health and wellness of the child through the lens of a family system. So our approach is very different.

Jenni Lord [00:11:29]:
And that, I would say that's part of the culture. And so let's start with that. Right. So we have a way that we're a paradigm, a lens that we're approaching this work with. And when we sit with potential hires or potential board candidates, we're sharing with them. This is the vision, this is where we're going. This is the why behind we're driving towards systemic transformation because of these core beliefs that the family and child belong together. God created the institution of the family and first institution in the garden.

Jenni Lord [00:12:02]:
Right? He created the family. And so you can't look at this space just looking at only the needs of the child. You have to look at that family system. So we're selling them on the vision. And then if somebody's like, gets excited about, man, you know, I love what you're doing. I love hearing the impact that you're making. We've had a 99% success rate over the past eight years of keeping families together. That's attractive in this space when.

Jenni Lord [00:12:30]:
Cause people get in this space to help people and to help children who've been hurt. Right. And so. And we see so much brokenness in the system. So when we're sitting with somebody and we're talking about our impact and how we approach the work and why we do things the way they do and the success, they're like, this is amazing. Like, I'm interested in being a part of this, right? So I think it starts with cultural buy in, that that's the first piece. And then recognizing our own deficiencies on the team. My husband's a big sports guy, and you don't recruit the same athlete for every position.

Jenni Lord [00:13:06]:
Right. You have to. There's a diversity of skill sets. So as we grew the organization, we grew our approach. When you know better, you do better. When you know more, you do more. Right. And for us, there was a point.

Jenni Lord [00:13:22]:
What we were doing was effective, but there was a couple of things. Number one, there was a deficiency in our space of appropriate clinical mental health offerings that were consistent with what this population needs. And then, number two, we didn't have that aspect on our team. And so we were outsourcing a lot of those referrals, and we didn't have the clinical expertise that we needed on our team to go and grow to where we wanted to be. Right. And so that was a first step for us, was just identifying the needs in our own team, the needs of those that we serve, and being responsive to that. So it started with the cultural buy in, but then you're identifying, and we actually did that from a board volunteer standpoint to help build out our clinical arm before we even really started hiring heavier on the clinical side. So that's an example of, you know, identifying what.

Jenni Lord [00:14:20]:
How someone's going to potentially fit with us, but then also what is needed.

Kenny Lange [00:14:24]:
Yeah, that's fantastic. It sounds like, you know, very crawl, walk, run. Like you're not just jumping out and doing something crazy. I also.

Jenni Lord [00:14:34]:
Kenny, thanks for saying that, because sometimes, you know, we're building the plane while we're flying it, but there have been times. There have been times when it's been crawl, walk, run. So it's good.

Kenny Lange [00:14:45]:
Yes, I frequently am building the plane. Planes, trains, and automobiles while they're running. Or as a friend of mine would say, he's like, I'm going mock Jesus with my hair on fire. I was like, I can identify with that. I do also just pause for a second on the topic and just highlight the importance of your holistic approach, because listeners may or may not know that my wife and I, we've been foster parents for six years. We fostered 18 kids. We've adopted two at the time of this recording. And there's a lot that focuses on just the child or just an environment or just the.

Kenny Lange [00:15:33]:
The parents or something like that, and you're really taking a more holistic view of it and unifying family units or family systems. And I think that that's critical. And when you hear it, you're like, well, yeah, duh. But it's, like, deceptively intuitive that that's the way that we should be approaching it. And it's something my wife and I advocate a lot for, because people who don't operate in this space or have experience, they want to vilify whatever the parents or families that lost their children temporarily to the foster care system. And we try to advocate for no, we're rooting for them. We're actively praying. We speak positively to the children about their parents and that we want them to be reunified, because that is, like you said, that's how God created the original unit is within the family.

Kenny Lange [00:16:28]:
So I really appreciate that approach.

Jenni Lord [00:16:30]:
Well, I appreciate you and your wife. You've said yes 18 times, and with that, that's just one yes. And keep saying yes to those kids day after day. And you said yes to some really hard and messy things, I'm sure. And I applaud you, not in a heroic sense, because I know that's not your desire, but truly, it's. It's very. A very difficult journey. So thank you for being there for those kids and families.

Kenny Lange [00:16:57]:
Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's a. It's a. It's a joy. Sometimes there's sadness and grief, but it is ultimately long, long view is a. It's a joy. So, as you've been able to find the specialist, grow your team, I want to go back to something you said before we. We started recording around the situational leadership and how that was top of mind.

Kenny Lange [00:17:20]:
And how is that the topic, the thought, the concept of situational leadership playing out for you and for the organization during this time of transition?

Jenni Lord [00:17:33]:
Well, yeah, thanks for the question. So, I think, you know, let me back up and say one thing right now. You're hearing a lot in the leadership world about adaptability. It's imperative that we are adaptable. I completely agree. I think it's not just for me, that CEO, but across the organization. The ability to be adaptable and nimble is super important even in our thinking. Right.

Jenni Lord [00:18:05]:
And that's hard to foster for adults. I think it's. You can coach towards that. But I think we have a real responsibility to help our kids learn adaptability so that, and I tell them real world scenarios from the workplace at our dinner table so that I can model for them how we might want to think differently about approaching things. And so I think, first and foremost, adaptability is necessary when you are in transition. And meaning that the script might look differently for a $3 million organization than for the transition when we were going from less than a million to a million. Like, that's a different type of. There's different requirements, so different situations.

Jenni Lord [00:18:52]:
Right. And so I'm not a micromanager. There's a lot of noise out there about, you know, micromanagement's an evil word, and. And why it has a negative connotation. It, for a reason. Most of us have been in a situation where we felt micromanaged, and no one really likes the way that feels like you think of, like, controlling or nitpicking. But I'd like to reframe it in the context of situational leadership. Situational leadership, if you're familiar with the concept, Ken Blanchard formulated this 50 plus years ago, and so the model has been around for a long time.

Jenni Lord [00:19:32]:
The model is not simple. It's not easily, it's not easy to digest, but the four core components are easy to digest. It's really like, am I. Am I directing your activity, am I coaching your activity? Am I supporting your activity, or am I delegating your activity or these activities and tasks? So it's really. There's four ways of looking at situational leadership. It's what is required. Let's say, Kenny, I need you. I need you to go project cash flow in this area of our earned income.

Jenni Lord [00:20:10]:
I need you to project that for the next three months. You're like, okay, I've never done that before, but I mean, so my hands off, like, how I want to be, which is kind of how I'm worried, like, go because I want to delegate authority. Well, that would be irresponsible if you've never done that before, right? If I just said, go figure it out, you can do it well. And you're like, great. I have no idea how to do what she's asking me to do. Like, that's not setting you up for success. That's not setting me or the organization up for success. If I just completely delegate it because you're in this new role, it's like, well, Kenny, you're over.

Jenni Lord [00:20:52]:
We hired you as a vp of business development. You've surely done this. I know that you can do it. Go figure it out. Well, that, so that's the antithesis of micromanaging. But if I said to you, hey, we're going to sit down and I'm going to direct you, I'm going to show you how to do this first, from the outside, you could look like, well, Jenny's just doing his job. She's micromanaging something she paid him to do. Well, that's, that is a generalization.

Jenni Lord [00:21:26]:
That's just inaccurate. So I think there's a prevailing thought out there that micromanagement is a bad thing. But I would say if we reframe it in the context of situational leadership, there are times when you're coaching and directing that it may look a little more like micromanaging because you're closer to the person and the task that you're delegating. But that's seasonal. It's not forever. Now, if I hire you and I show you how to do it, I'm not going to keep doing it for you month after month. That would be micromanaging. Why am I paying you? Right? I'm doing it for you.

Jenni Lord [00:22:02]:
But there should be a progression in those quadrants that I mentioned before to go from directing to coaching you to supporting you in doing the work and then ultimately delegating it for me, Kenny, in full transparency in these shifts of the organization that I was, you know, we started with the transition. Like, I didn't get it. All right. I let go of some things too quickly because familiarity and just trusting and so having to kind of recalibrate and go, okay, I need to be a little bit more hands on involved in this then I. Than I realized.

Kenny Lange [00:22:45]:
Yeah, that's really good. I heard somebody term that if you let go too early without guidance is like leadership by abdication. Like, okay, you got it. And you've sort of abandoned them to go figure it out on their own, which is it's not helpful. It's not good leadership. It's not good stewardship of resources and people and is often uncaring. There's, if anybody's familiar with the four stages of psychological safety, there's one on the contributor safety, where they break down the levels of delegation, delegate the task process, and then the outcome. And what I heard you say was, well, I definitely have delegated an outcome, but I'm going to work with them on the task, teach them the process, and then you can finally back away and let them, you know, make good on the outcome, but not right away.

Kenny Lange [00:23:48]:
The, there, there's that coaching. It's sort of like guided autonomy. They have autonomy. You're not treating them like a child. I didn't hear you say that. But it's really like, I'm going to walk with you as is helpful, and I may separate a little bit along, you know, afterwards, but you're still available, is what I hear you saying as well is that it's not a, I'm going to train you for this month and either get it or get out. I don't hear you saying that.

Jenni Lord [00:24:15]:
No, and I, I've definitely made the mistake that you said before, like letting go to go figure it out and made mistakes on that front. I like something that Dave Ramsey talks about is giving people ground, so you give them opportunities that are not going to sink the ship. Well, in this case, if, Kenny, I'm asking you to project cash flow in this area of the organization for the next three months. Good luck with that. And I hope it works out. Like, there could be some critical repercussions if that does not go well. But if I say to you, Kenny, I really think that we need to incorporate a structure underneath that business development that's going to help us move into the future. You've had some, you've had some experience with that.

Jenni Lord [00:25:05]:
Can you go put together a presentation to share with leadership team what that might look like? Well, I'm giving you autonomy. I'm giving you a project. I'm giving you some ground, really, to improve your mettle. But that is not going to sync the organization.

Kenny Lange [00:25:24]:
Right.

Jenni Lord [00:25:25]:
There's different levels of opportunity where you can be more involved or less involved that are appropriate. It's like titrating based on really scope and weight to what you're asking them to do.

Kenny Lange [00:25:42]:
Right. Yeah. The opportunity, that non fatal failure, um, sort of thing. Like, obviously you want them to succeed, but you, you want to cap your downside in the event that it doesn't go according to plan.

Jenni Lord [00:25:55]:
You said that so much for succinctly than I just described.

Kenny Lange [00:25:59]:
No, I love. But I love the way you're getting at it, because you're. You're giving me some new things, and, uh. And. And Lord knows I love a good Dave Ramsey example. I think I mentioned him this morning, um, to. To a friend. But so as you are engaging in the situational leadership, and I think you said it well, when he said, it's a lot about adaptability, I'd be curious.

Kenny Lange [00:26:24]:
Your take being that you have led for so long in an organization and been connected with for profit nonprofits that you're seeing across the spectrum, do you think that transitions are happening, whether organizations want them or not, more quickly today than maybe ever before? And what does that do to the classic leadership scripts? Like, this is the way you lead, and when you reach VP or an executive level, these are the certain things you do now. It seems like you can't hold to a script at all. And it's sort of a custom approach every time, which could feel very exhausting. I'm curious if you feel like we've gotten to this place now because our culture around us changes so quickly, or is it governmental influence or what's happening for leaders that's forcing the adaptability conversation.

Jenni Lord [00:27:25]:
Well, yeah, the pace of change social. The pace of social change. The rate and pace of information that's coming at us is faster. The information that's coming at us in more mediums is coming faster than ever before. So that definitely has an impact, I think, on the need for change and adaptability. But I also think you throw a pandemic in there that, like, everything that just turns everything upside down affects mental health, not just of our youth, but of our workforce. That has caused people to reevaluate their priorities and reevaluate how they spend their time and working to integrate their life and family in a more holistic way into their work world. Like we.

Jenni Lord [00:28:24]:
There's been so much change in that way just in the past four years. So you add that in with this social and overflow of knowledge and information that's coming at us, it can be exhausting. I would say this, and you know this because you've had, you have five kids, you've fostered a bunch of kids. Like, you cannot parent your kids the same way, the same in every situation. We want to be consistent. We want to be principled. We've got our values that we're going to stand behind, but the need to be adaptable for your kids in different situations. I could if I had.

Jenni Lord [00:29:09]:
Let's say I have teenagers, right? Well, I have my 18 year old. If I leave town and she's in charge, it's going to be a different conversation than if I leave town and my 17 year old's in charge. They're just different personalities. I have different. And frankly, there's different levels of responsibility and things that I know about them that I'm going to address the situation differently. And so I think it's the same way in leadership. It's imperative that we have a tool belt with lots of tools that we can pull out and reference. I love that you said something earlier before we got started about, you know, we don't want to just share or read or ingest information without application.

Jenni Lord [00:29:56]:
Like, we've got to be able to apply these things well, and knowledge puffs up. Right. So if we're not doing anything with all of this knowledge that we're ingesting. So to me, I think we do have a real responsibility to be trained in different styles, different types of and different taking those tools and putting them in the tool belt so that we can lead our people, who all have different needs and different wirings differently.

Kenny Lange [00:30:27]:
Yeah, that's really well said. And I love the child explanation. I saw a meme once that said, it's like, children are weird because you have one child you could trust to run your entire house, and another one should not be left alone with, like, even an umbrella because they'll wreck everything. And that is very true. Our two year old is proving to be that way today. He's fascinated by pouring liquids out of everything he can get his hands on.

Jenni Lord [00:30:56]:
Oh, my.

Kenny Lange [00:30:57]:
Yeah. So all the drinks are way up high right now, but I'd be curious, your take and maybe offering some encouragement to the leader that's listening and is feeling overwhelmed. I think he said it well. There's more coming at us, more situations that we're confronted with more often, and we also have access to more information than we've ever had. So knowing which information do I pay attention to, which information do I consume and get trained on? It can almost feel like you would spend your entire day preparing to lead and never actually getting into the leadership or the doing of the work. Right. Is a balance to be struck there, I believe. How are you thinking about that balance between I'm going to go and develop myself and learn from others or get some coaching or do something and so that I can apply it, versus, like, you're just constantly putting out fires or just learning all the time.

Kenny Lange [00:32:02]:
Those are two ditches. Because if anybody goes and we'll put a link to your, your LinkedIn and you post awesome content, there's usually lots of smiling faces, but you've shown, like, with eos, like you've had your annual, I think recently you were sharing about that board off sites, things like that. So you're showing that you're spending time investing in those. But I don't imagine that's what you spend every day doing.

Jenni Lord [00:32:30]:
No. And you're right. There could be a tendency to think that's what's required, especially if you feel overwhelmed, that you. You could go to one extreme or the other. If you're overwhelmed and burned out, um, you know, if you just need some rest. So I think it's about calibrating ourselves first. I mean, reflection is really important. Um, some quiet is really important.

Jenni Lord [00:32:53]:
I am. I guard my time in the morning with vigilance because I need it. I need. I need prayer time. I need quiet time to think as a leader. And I don't know if you've had this experience, but, man, I definitely occurred for me in the pandemic where I was so over scheduled, everything was back to back. I had no time to think. I was just doing well.

Jenni Lord [00:33:23]:
We have to carve out that time to think. No, there's a false. There's a false assumption. I don't know, false narrative out there, that because we have access, greater access, greater connectivity than ever, we can be more efficient, more responsive, more with all the notifications. And that is a recipe for anxiety and it's a recipe for burnout. So we have got to have. Carve out the time to one, have the reflection that we need, thought time that we need to lead well, but then you have to carve out that time, too, to invest in yourself and in your leadership. And I think there's been different seasons for me of what that looked like, of understanding what was needed.

Jenni Lord [00:34:11]:
But the main thing is that I'm intentional on a monthly basis, and really even weekly, if you look at just the types of information that I'm reading or looking at. So I would say if you're overwhelmed and burned out, I think just starting with get having some quiet for yourself to just recalibrate to true north of what's important to me, what's important to the organization, what does my focus need to be? My word of the year is focus.

Kenny Lange [00:34:39]:
Amen.

Jenni Lord [00:34:40]:
And I don't always focus super well. And if I have all the notifications on and all. All the access to everything that is not, that dilutes my focus and it dilutes my effectiveness. Right. Right. And so I think we have to guard and protect our time to have that reflection and the intentional learning.

Kenny Lange [00:35:04]:
I love that. And I think you sort of answered what is typically my final question of, like, the first step someone can do. And I would love you to maybe put a bow on that. But first, as you were talking, I was, I was thinking of the leader that's listening and saying, well, that's nice for you, Jenny. You get to be CEO and have a leadership team that can take care of stuff for you. You're leading a multimillion dollar organization. I'd love for you to confront the narrative that you get to do those things because you're in that position versus you've done those things intentionally, and that's helped you reach the place of leadership and authority and position that you've achieved. Can you speak to that for just briefly?

Jenni Lord [00:35:58]:
Yeah, I. It's an interesting question, and you're right. I get to do those things. I get to do those things. It's a privilege, and I don't take that lightly. I took a spiritual gift test when I was in my early twenties, and leadership was one of my top three spiritual gifts. And I, when I looked at the questions, I saw, I just was curious about how it scored me. And so went and looked at it and where I was, where it ding to me, where it wasn't, like the top score on the questions, it all pertained to delegation.

Jenni Lord [00:36:36]:
So at that time, I was not good at delegating. I was the type of kid that if we had a group project, I was just going to do it like, I just, I'm just going to do it because I wonder if I do it just right. I'm going to. I want an a. I can't trust this person to get it done because they've shown me they're, you know, just.

Kenny Lange [00:36:57]:
I can't identify with this person.

Jenni Lord [00:36:58]:
Right. You can't. Yeah. And so, and, I mean, I've had to work on this with my kids, too, because a couple of them kind of have that mentality. And part of that's just how I was raised. I'm the oldest of a four, the only girl, often a single, single household and single parent household. And so I was in charge a lot. Right.

Jenni Lord [00:37:19]:
And I was used to just being in charge. And so this idea of delegation, when I was reading the spiritual gifts test, I was like, I haven't learned how to do that. And so what I realized young in my career was I was going to be very limited in what I could accomplish on my own and very limited in what I was going to accomplish with that kind of thinking. You are not going to. I'm not going to continue to grow myself or the organization if I think it all rests on me and I can't bring others to get their help. And so even when we were very small and mostly surrounded with volunteers, I just learned to find the strengths and gifts at the table and ask people for, like, ask for help. So I think that that has been part of the shift in what has helped me to get here.

Kenny Lange [00:38:17]:
Yeah. And would you say that learning to delegate also helps you create the space that you were talking about, that you're intentional to protect that time because you let go of the story that if it's meant to be, it's up to me sort of thing, 100%. That's. I've never heard anybody approach it from that perspective. It's also rudely convicting for me. So thank you for that. But if you were to summarize some of the taking time apart or if somebody is looking to get started with delegating and stepping into that situational leadership, what's a step you'd recommend they take in the next 24 hours? That may not cost them anything except for a little bit of time so that they can start down this road.

Jenni Lord [00:39:09]:
Yeah. So I said this before. Situational leadership is not, it's not a simple read or simple model. I have definitely been at places in my career where I was stuck and I needed a coach. I needed resources, like somebody outside of the situation. We keep calling, seek, saying situation that could see things from a different vantage point, that had some wisdom that could speak into my scenario. So I'm a big fan of getting external help when you need it. And that's somebody from your board or that's Kenny who does some consulting and coaching or somebody that you trust, a peer that, you know, can maybe recommend some outside consulting.

Jenni Lord [00:39:53]:
I don't think that you need a lot. Sometimes you just need a dropper pool of an hour from somebody that can just help you see things a little bit differently to get unstuck. Right. So I would start with that. Who is around you that can provide a little bit of insight if you're feeling stuck. And the other thing is, I'm a big fan of this. If you are interested in situational leadership and that spoke to you about how do you navigate through that delegation process and appropriately transition people or responsibility or authority? There are some great YouTube videos that just summarize situational leadership. And with a model and, you know, a graphic, a visual, it just kind of helps you process through it.

Jenni Lord [00:40:41]:
I think that's a good starting place, and you might want to combine those two things. A little bit of coaching or outside counsel with, with that.

Kenny Lange [00:40:50]:
I love that. We'll see if we can find some of those videos and maybe link those up in the show notes. Well, Jenny, I've really enjoyed our conversation and I'm certain that the listeners have as well. If they want to know more about you chosen, your mission, the work you're doing, or just follow your leadership advice, where would you steer them?

Jenni Lord [00:41:13]:
Well, I'm very active on LinkedIn, as you said before. So if you request to follow me or send me a message, I would love to connect with you. That way. If you're interested in learning about our work, our impact, those that we serve, you can visit us at chosen care and check us out.

Kenny Lange [00:41:32]:
Excellent. Yeah, we have a whole host. I think you win the award and gold star for most URL's completed in the guest questionnaire that we send out. So I was like, man, yay. Finally somebody's using these.

Jenni Lord [00:41:48]:
It's always fun.

Kenny Lange [00:41:49]:
So thank you for that and I appreciate that. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and for you, the listener. If you got value out of this, I definitely would appreciate a like a subscribe a share, help more people engage in these conversations. And if it helped you, why not let it help someone else? But until next time, remember, change the way you think you'll change the way you leave.