How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Jason Rutel [00:00:00]:
Is a daily thing, though. We all are going to be driven one way or the other, whether we're driven to be lazy because we're fearful of what doing something might actually do. Some people who don't achieve super hard are afraid of trying because then their fears would be confirmed that they're not good enough.

Kenny Lange [00:00:21]:
Welcome to the how leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Jason Ruttel. Like Rotel, but with a U is what I've been told. He is the founder and lead creative of Creative Nomads, a a passionate advocate for storytelling and global missions. Those are cool things. He leverages his expertise in web design, videography, and branding to enhance donor engagement for missions organizations with a strong background in communications and intercultural studies.

Jason Rutel [00:00:56]:
So.

Kenny Lange [00:00:56]:
So he's. He reads a lot, is what that means. He leads his team in using cutting edge technology, including leveraging AI, to empower organizations worldwide, demonstrating a unique blend of creativity and strategic thinking to drive impactful narratives. Welcome to the show, Jason.

Jason Rutel [00:01:14]:
Thanks. Glad to be here.

Kenny Lange [00:01:16]:
Well, you better be. People are going to listen to this. Like, man, he came out aggressive at Jason. It's like, they'll print because we're friends.

Jason Rutel [00:01:24]:
It's because we're friends.

Kenny Lange [00:01:25]:
We're friends.

Jason Rutel [00:01:26]:
I gave them a hard time.

Kenny Lange [00:01:28]:
Yeah, for 35 minutes, you gave me a hard time. That and your printer, which was slowly dying. Well, tell me, Jason, what is on your mind.

Jason Rutel [00:01:41]:
That it took us 35 minutes to dive into this conversation that's currently on my mind, but that's probably not where we want to start.

Kenny Lange [00:01:48]:
Even longer, if you consider how many times we rescheduled.

Jason Rutel [00:01:53]:
What else is on our mind? Work life balance, I think, is always on my mind. I think in terms of being a business owner and a leader in our space, you're always competing against others or yourself, depending on what's your motivation and what drives you. I think for me, I'm pretty self motivated. So a lot of times I'm competing against what I think I can do, and I like to prove that wrong or prove other people wrong. I enjoy that. But work life balance in the sense of, like, the hustle culture, I think people are really. We hear a lot of conversations lately about, like, maybe the hustle culture wasn't quite what we needed, wasn't quite the right way. And I think there's still a lot of people who.

Jason Rutel [00:02:39]:
Who elevate hustle culture. Like, work 80 hours, grind it till it's done. You're a weakling if you're not doing that. You just don't even bother getting out of bed if you're not going to work 1213 hours days versus I'm coming at business ownership saying I don't have all the answers and I can't do it all myself. And if I work like it all depends upon me all the time, I'm going to burn out. And it's not sustainable. And I don't want that. I want to create a life that is balanced for my family, balanced for me, and then also creates a culture for my company that allows the people who work for me to a.

Jason Rutel [00:03:23]:
We expect good, excellent work, right? We want to put in the work when we're working, but when we're not working, drop your shoulders. And I think that allows you to bring yourself better to work itself because there's definitely a cost to the hustle culture. And I think we're making a shift as a family to further isolate ourselves from the hustle culture. And I think that's, you know, that's a making big life choices that say, hey, we don't have to do what everyone else is doing. We don't have to build a business the way everyone else is doing it. We don't have to engage in the quote unquote rat race. We can actually step out of the maze and do things differently.

Kenny Lange [00:04:07]:
That's fantastic. I agree with it. And I feel like there's probably going to be some shots fired in what you say at my life right now. And that's fine, that's cool. I'm a work in progress. I'm not dead. God's not done.

Jason Rutel [00:04:18]:
But I don't have it figured out fully yet.

Kenny Lange [00:04:22]:
There you go. When you do write a book, because that's what you're supposed to do. But speaking of what you're supposed to do, I mean, what you mentioned is just the engagement in the hustle culture. Obviously, I don't hear you say that people shouldn't work hard, which I think some people fall into what is a false dichotomy, sort of fallacy of either hustle hard or you're a lazy good for nothing, right? And there's nothing in between. But it seems like that's a really easy narrative to buy into. And in your experience and working with teams and leading in a variety of spaces, in particular in the creative space, what do you think makes that narrative so easy to grab hold of and. And hang on to unpack that narrative.

Jason Rutel [00:05:18]:
A little bit more when you say that. Are you talking about the hustle culture narrative?

Kenny Lange [00:05:21]:
Yeah.

Jason Rutel [00:05:22]:
Or the opposite of it?

Kenny Lange [00:05:23]:
Well, that. That there are only those two things. Like you're. You're hyper vigilant, you're always working, even to the detriment of your own health, in a variety of what health means. Or you're. If. But if you're not doing that, you're. You're lazy, you're not an a player.

Kenny Lange [00:05:43]:
You're wrong. You're bad. You're, you know, not worth employing or what have you. Like. Cause something is keeping people in the hustle culture and. And keeping that alive.

Jason Rutel [00:05:56]:
Yeah. I think it. It's such a complicated issue that's gonna. That involves psychology, social pressure, your work environment, the way that you were raised. All of these things are going to kind of factor into why you might be driven. I grew up not having a lot, and so deep down and kind of unpacking, like, I wrestle through. I don't want to grow up that way. I don't want to continue life that way.

Jason Rutel [00:06:22]:
Not being able to pay our bills or different things like that. I want things to be different for my family and that. And so there's a level of motivation there. But as I've grown in my faith, I've been able to tame that down, faith in God and saying, like, hey, I can trust that my needs will be provided for. So that balances out this intense desire that I have to work really, really, really hard. And so I find myself, I still have the drive, I still have that peace of me that wants to grind really hard, that wants to accomplish that, wants to prove myself. And I think that piece of which, when I can recognize what that's doing inside of me, it's a lot of self awareness. But when I recognize that it's up to me to make a mental decision that that's not actually the healthiest version of myself, I can turn that down.

Jason Rutel [00:07:19]:
I can tame it, I can bridle it. The power. Meekness is defined as power under control. And so I think that's this invitation for us that we may have the ability and the power and the drive to be workaholics, but we need to, or to work overdrive at 1000%. But it actually takes another level of power to pull that back and to say it and self restraint to say, you know, you start evaluating that over time, and you're saying the cost on the backside of doing that, whether it costs you your family, it costs you your friends, it costs you relationships, it costs you. It has a cost. It may give you a gain of financial freedom and joy in having those freedoms, but there's a cost, and I think you can still get to those freedoms that we want without having to have the costs. And it's a balance.

Jason Rutel [00:08:14]:
It's very nuanced, and people have to figure this out for themselves. But, yeah, I don't know. For me, I think everyone has to evaluate their own motivations to really figure out the answer to that question that well said.

Kenny Lange [00:08:29]:
I hear you saying that maybe the awareness lets you validate the good part of having a high drive, a great work ethic, or some of those things, but it's a bit like the law of diminishing returns. Like, it's good up until a point, and then at some point, it's actually, it's damaging. It's actually setting you back. What do you say to the person who says, well, I'm trying to compete against what's possible, which is a phrase that I learned from Jeff Schefelbein, which is actually, that's a good thing, but it was in the context of teams, and you said something similar at the beginning. It's like, no, no, no. I need to have unbridled, like, passion and power and these things, and I can't restrain this. It's just me being me. Right.

Kenny Lange [00:09:31]:
Which is probably one of my least favorite things because it just comes across as a great excuse to be a jack wagon. But. And a few other words that I won't say here because I'd have to change, like, put the little e on the episode. But is it. How. How have you seen that show up either in your life or, or in other leaders lives? Like, when. If they're. If they're not seeking that self awareness, like, they.

Kenny Lange [00:10:02]:
Or maybe they even know that the bad side is there, but they don't know how to stop. Right. Like, I'm aware I witnessed the negative impact on. On my mental, emotional, physical, relational health, but what's my alternative? And they. They feel stuck there. What. What do you say to those people?

Jason Rutel [00:10:26]:
So we're talking to the person who is super driven and knows it could be a problem, but feels stuck in it because doesn't know another way.

Kenny Lange [00:10:37]:
Yeah.

Jason Rutel [00:10:38]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:10:40]:
I don't know another way. And the dangerous thing is it sort of worked for them.

Jason Rutel [00:10:44]:
Oh, it absolutely works, because our culture celebrates the hard workers. Right. If I had a person on my team that was a rock star and just crushing. And every task you give them, they're just knocking it out of the park, and they wanted to over accomplish and everything you gave them, they just excelled at. I don't have great insights into their personal life. I don't know, as an employer. I don't know what that cost is on their home life for them to do that. Obviously, I don't let my team, for the most part, work past 40 hours a week.

Jason Rutel [00:11:15]:
So that's a decent guardrail. But I don't know if they have a job on their outside that, you know, it's like, it's impossible to know. So speaking to that person. So we celebrate it. They get celebrated. They get that recognition. I think it comes down to, I want to use the word identity. They have to understand who they are and be freed from the destination that they're pursuing so hard because they're trying to get somewhere, they're trying to accomplish, they're trying to achieve, or they're trying to be known for something.

Jason Rutel [00:11:52]:
They're trying to make themselves known. There's a significance they're searching after. And I think until you get to the place that you say, I am who I am, and I want to still grow as a human, because if you're not growing, you're shrinking, you're dying, and we all should be growing and learning. But I'm okay with who I am. I recognize my faults, and I don't have to lie. I don't have to hide them. I don't have to cover them up. I can help.

Jason Rutel [00:12:18]:
I can get help for those things, but I'm okay who I am, and I can make progress now that I recognize who I am. But if I'm constantly running from the truth of where I'm at in my identity and all of those things, if I'm running from something or running towards something, it becomes really, really hard to have good self awareness. And I think it's a daily thing, though, because once you've found your tendency, right, we all are going to be driven one way or the other, whether we're driven to be lazy because we're fearful of what, you know, doing something might actually do. You know, um, we're fearful. Some people, I feel like some people who don't achieve super hard are afraid of trying because then their fears would be confirmed that they're not good enough. So if they just don't try, it's like Schrodinger's cat.

Kenny Lange [00:13:03]:
So long as we don't open the box, we'll never know if it's alive or dead, 100%.

Jason Rutel [00:13:07]:
You know, like, I don't have to know if I'm good or not, because I just didn't try. And I think. I think that holds a lot of people back. This fear of failure, that's essentially what that is. And I think that holds a lot of people back. Fear. So, I mean, fear on either side, fear of being without, fear of failing is going to affect you on either side. And I think if you can find freedom from fear, the opposite of fear is love.

Jason Rutel [00:13:32]:
So once you are, once you are secure in the fact that you are loved for who you are and not what you do, then you have the ability to live out of a secure and stable identity. Once you're there, I think that gives you the freedom to operate slower, to operate with trust, to operate in wholeness, with integrity. It's operating out of that. And that piece gets interrupted every single day. Just yesterday I had a crisis and a client emailing me and sending me these text messages at five in the morning. And my piece is then shaken up and I have to go through the.

Kenny Lange [00:14:07]:
Process, right, which comes back to what you're saying about it's a daily sort of either remembering or process to make, to make progress. So within the identity piece, I think we understand this easily, especially in the work you do running a creative agency. That's also my background. And so in a lot of cases, we probably run hundreds of sessions where we're helping people understand their organization's identity. And we do a lot of work with that, right? Because then that forms the basis of marketing and how do we organize this and how do we storytell and do those things? But really, I mean, an organization is no different than a human. I mean, it needs and craves a lot of the same things to stay healthy and to be successful. Because really, organizations are nothing without people. But for a person, it seems like that part is far more complicated and takes far more effort than does doing a story brand workshop to figure out, like, what's the identity, what's the hero's journey and how are we the guide, blah, blah, blah.

Kenny Lange [00:15:24]:
So what has helped you in pursuing self awareness? And maybe do you have something a mentor, peers or others have done that seems to work for them and taking steps toward that? Because I do also believe that there's fear, much like what happens if I show up and I try and I fail, you know, what happens if you succeed? Because there's new pressures with that too, and we can get into that later. But if I go and find out, what if I don't like who I am? What if I don't like how I'm wired what if I don't? How do you step into those things? Cause there's a level of courage that I think it takes for anybody to, as Michael Jackson said, start with the man in the mirror.

Jason Rutel [00:16:11]:
Yeah, that's an interesting statement. Like, what if I don't like who I am? Like, what do you do at that point? And I think it comes down to, I've heard it described as two different types of mindsets. Like, there's some people who have a fixed mindset and a growth mindset, right? A fixed mindset says, I am who I am, and that can never change. This is the deck of cards I've been handed. A growth mindset says, I am who I am. So now I can know where to go and what I need to work on and where I can grow from here. And I think that's an important difference, because if you look at things from a fixed mindset, it's defeatist. Like, okay, why bother if I can't change, right?

Kenny Lange [00:16:50]:
Yeah, no, that's a great point. I mean, if that's the basis, if that's your. If that's your worldview or your perspective, then why try? Makes a whole lot of sense.

Jason Rutel [00:17:01]:
Yeah. So I think you have to start there. You have to have a growth mindset and then be brave enough to do that internal reflection on yourself. And honestly, a few years ago, what shifted a lot of my identity for myself was understanding how I go about defining that. And so I started attending a different church that had a different way of defining things. And it was really cool because people in the faith community, we've understood these terms, right? You want to have who you are, and then there's God and how you relate to him, and then what are you supposed to do in this life? What's your purpose? Right? And a lot of times it's described, and I grew up this way, and I went to probably 15 different churches and ten different denominations. I've seen them all growing up. And so what was interesting is just.

Jason Rutel [00:17:52]:
And we do this without even trying, but we do this whether you're in church or the outside of the church. We focus on actions before we focus on your identity. Meaning what you do becomes way more important than who you are. In fact, what you do often would define who you are. We look at things and say, oh, you are a welder. So that's who you are. You must love fixing things. Oh, you work on computers or you're an engineer.

Jason Rutel [00:18:20]:
That's your identity right now. Right? And so people who have, like, midlife crisis and they're, like, trying to refigure their identity. I think a lot of times it's because they started with what they did and that helped define their identity. And so in the faith community, a lot of times it's like we are asked to go serve, to go volunteer, to go do all of these things with our time and to give back so that God would be happy and God would be made pleased with us. We're trying to give, get on God's good graces by doing these activities that he said to do in his word. The Bible says to do all these things, so we should do them. And then, because we do them, that's obedience, and God loves us, and then our identity is then secure. The cool thing that, um, where we're at now, it's called Valley Creek Church.

Jason Rutel [00:19:11]:
And what this paradigm shift is, it's three, three circles. Identity, relationship, purpose. God's heart is in the center. Most of the time, religion does it backwards. Do all these things so that God would be happy and you'll be secure. Instead, start on the top with the identity. If you read God's word, it says that you are loved. And so if you start with this identity of we are loved.

Jason Rutel [00:19:33]:
And I think this works whether you're in the church or you're not. If you have a secure identity that you are loved for who you are and not what you do, that allows you to be in relationship. When you first know that you're loved, then you can enter into relationship without fear, right? Because fear causes us to shrink back, right. When you're afraid that someone else is not going to meet your needs, you pull back. You start to take care of your own needs versus if there's love, you're able to engage with your whole self. And so that gives you the relationship. And then out of the relationship comes purpose. Then you can start looking at what you can do and how you can be in those areas.

Jason Rutel [00:20:15]:
And that stems out of identity first. And so the direction of this makes so much of a difference. It's subtle, but then when you think about it, you could spiral on this circle for hours and hours and learn something new about yourself. And what's interesting is you never stop learning about your identity and how there's more relationships and then there's more purpose for you to do, right? It's not, these are not static circles. They're growing circles like you're going to. We keep unpacking. I keep unpacking who I am and who God created me to be before I ever get to the places of, like, what I'm supposed to do.

Kenny Lange [00:20:52]:
That's really good. I also love circles, overlapping and concentric circles. I have a lot of fun with those. I find. I find that they're. They're helpful in defining some ethereal things to give them space in a relationship. So how then, would you see this working in a. I was going to say business sense, but really, I mean, whether it's nonprofit, you know, faith based or for profit.

Kenny Lange [00:21:22]:
Right. How does this show up for us and work so that we are, like you said, coming from a place of. I'm secure in being loved, and that is who I am as I'm loved. You can say, I'm a child of God. I'm this, that, the other thing, what's meaningful for you, and then go out and engage in the world from that place. How does that impact us in the work that we do, wherever that may be, and maybe throw in a little bonus there in particular for that founder or that senior most person, which can really be a very lonely or isolated place where everybody is looking at what you do, because you're doing everything for everyone.

Jason Rutel [00:22:17]:
I think we use the word the world would. Professionals will use the word authenticity. And I think that is what comes across when someone is secure. They. When you meet someone and you're like, wow, that person is just really authentic. I think those are the people who are really secure in who they are, that they know that they're loved. They don't have to prove anything. And.

Jason Rutel [00:22:42]:
And, you know, I think we want that in our brands. We want that in our companies. We want that in the people we work with. Um, authenticity, wholeness. Integrity means wholeness, and it's basically alignment between what you say and what you do. Right. It's. It's one thing to have great words and to, you know, say a lot of things, and then what do your actions say about you? There's so many phrases about that.

Jason Rutel [00:23:08]:
Right?

Kenny Lange [00:23:08]:
Yeah.

Jason Rutel [00:23:09]:
And I think we look for that in employees. Right. It's one thing to say you're have an employee that says, yeah, I know all these things. I can knock that out of the park. It's another thing for them to actually follow up on through that, show up every single day to get what they said they were going to get done. And we love that. I think that gets celebrated, and I think you can be authentic without grinding it out. You know.

Kenny Lange [00:23:32]:
I would agree. As a matter of fact, it may be difficult to remain authentic if you are just ongoing in grind and hustle and things like that. And that's why I appreciate books like, was it Jefferson Bethke wrote to hell with the hustle? John Mark Comer wrote a great book. I really like, ironically, I read it with a. I read it by myself, but I read it with a group, and I asked them, I said, is it against the rules in our group for me to listen to this book at 1.7 speed?

Jason Rutel [00:24:13]:
But can I hustle through the hustle book?

Kenny Lange [00:24:16]:
Yeah, I want to hustle through the resisting hustle book, but both are great. But talk about, like, even if you look at the life of Jesus, it was. He got a lot done, but he was never in a hurry. The ruthless elimination of hurry comes from Dallas Willard. When he was. I think that was him. Somebody he was mentoring asked him, like, if there was one thing that all believers should do in order to, you know, become authentic, understand God, build in that relationship and that security. And he said it would be the ruthless elimination of hurry.

Kenny Lange [00:24:53]:
He said, hurry is what is choking us out. And I hear a lot of that in what you are sharing and articulating in that security and building that. Something I've grown more curious about because I've heard work life balance quite a bit, and it's a very popular term. I've heard some other people say, well, I think the intent behind it is good, but balance may not be a realistic thought. And given the journey you and your family are about to take, you're making good on your brand of being nomads, right? You're loading up in the trailer. You're driving around the country like, you're going to be a bit nomadic, but it really does intertwine everything that you are doing and who with who you are. As also a father and a husband of work life integration, because balance may not be realistic. And I'm curious of your take on that, given the big life changing commitments you and your wife are making to take the business and the family on the road.

Jason Rutel [00:26:04]:
Right? Certainly, is integration like, it's not like I'm going to stop working. I think there's an interesting nuance to the word balance, right? Because if you think about balance, it means it's equal on both sides. And that may not always mean time, but I certainly think it means quality. That means quality of your work. Quality of your life should be in balance. And so, obviously, we all spend the majority of our time during the week in our work.

Kenny Lange [00:26:33]:
Yeah.

Jason Rutel [00:26:34]:
But it shouldn't come at the sacrifice of being full of life. And I think that is this interesting concept of it doesn't necessarily mean I work 20 hours and play 20 hours a week. No, I mean, that sounds great, though. It's like I deal. Some people work 80 hours a week and some people work twelve or four. The four hour work week, I'm not there. Definitely not. I work probably about 40, and then on crazy weeks I might get up to 50, but sometimes I can do 30.

Jason Rutel [00:27:07]:
And it works out. Just kind of depends on the week. And I think it's an ebb and flow, and I think I say this a lot, and I've said I think a lot, but it becomes a self awareness issue. Right. To have a balance between your work and your life is to check in with yourself on a weekly basis. And if you had a really crazy week and something that took a lot out of you is recognizing, okay, there needs to be a balance on the other side of this that says, I'm going to pull back, or what adjustments do I need to make to pull back? And some people's timelines on that are different. Everyone will say, if you put your head down, I've seen a few of these posts, put your head down and disappear for a year, you'll be farther ahead than everyone else when you look back up. Uh, and I think that's true that you, if you, if you work really, really hard for a season of time, but you just have to have an.

Jason Rutel [00:28:02]:
When you're single, that's so much more possible than when you have a family. And you have to just be aware of these things. And having a family means sacrificing the ability to work 100 hours, like by me having a wife and kids. I chose the life that meant I couldn't work 100 to 120 hours a week. And that was a choice I made by going down this road. And I will continue to make that choice because I love my family. You know, they're such a part of who I am, and I wouldn't trade them and for anything. And I think people who get to the end of their life are going to look back, and it's not the accomplishments, it's just what people say about you and the relationships and the impact you made in other people's lives.

Jason Rutel [00:28:51]:
And I think that's the focus that we need to remember of what actually has a lasting impact.

Kenny Lange [00:29:03]:
And that sounds symptomatic of being more reflective, being more self aware, and giving yourself permission to make some of those adjustments. Is that greater impact? Which, I don't know any leader worth their salt that would say, I'm really seeking to make less and less impact as the years go on. Right? And I know some people have a weird relationship with the word legacy, but you may start thinking that way as well. So if someone wanted to become more self aware, maybe they've gotten enough awareness, because I think if you have zero self awareness, you probably already turned this podcast off. And that's, that's fine. We'll be here when you hit rock bottom and you're ready to change. But for those that say, I have enough awareness to know things aren't the way they should be or the way I would like them to be, and I want to change and I want to gain that awareness, what's something they could do in the next 24 hours that would cost them next to nothing? Or maybe something very little that could help start them on that practice of self awareness. Because I don't hear you say it's been a one and done for you.

Kenny Lange [00:30:23]:
It's become a discipline and a practice that's ongoing.

Jason Rutel [00:30:26]:
Right. I think that's part of the ever evolving circles where you're going to keep learning more and more about who you are and unpacking that. I want to give the, I'm trying not to give the trite answer, but so this is going to depend on your, on this is going to start with self awareness. Are you the type of person that gets a lot out of writing? Because if you are, my step would be go journal, journal about your goals, journal about where you want to be a great practice that someone that I, Donald Miller said to do write your obituary.

Kenny Lange [00:31:04]:
Yeah.

Jason Rutel [00:31:05]:
And that comes down to the whole thing is like, start with the end in mind. So when you write your obituary, it's how you want to be remembered. And it's. And then you can compare how you want to be remembered with what does your life look like now? And that's going to give you a pretty clear picture of are you on track for that goal or not? And what do you have to adjust to make those changes? And then the other thing, so that can be done now, it's free. You can just start. Open up a piece of paper or notes on your phone and start going. The other thing is to like, have a friend, have a mentor, or just anybody who's wise and is good at listening to just ask these questions and say, like, help me unpack this. Because for me, I'm a verbal processor and I get a lot out of talking with someone else, especially someone who's growth minded.

Jason Rutel [00:31:53]:
Um, take a friend after coffee who is also growth minded and say, hey, what are you learning. How are you learning? Um, you know, how are you becoming self aware? And then you really have to build a relationship with a friend who's that, who's willing to point things out in you, and they have to be close enough that you trust what they say. Because there are some times where I'm like, you really don't spend enough time with me to know what you're speaking into my life, so I'm not going to trust you. And that just comes out of a willingness for me to build that bridge with someone else. And if I want that in my life, I have to make the time, I have to build that relationship with someone else who also wants that. So two different routes for people who like people, people who like journaling, both are helpful.

Kenny Lange [00:32:42]:
That's really good. And I love what you said about being careful, about filtering out who you let speak into your life and pursue for these sort of things. I heard a pastor once, he drew a lot of criticism, really fast growing church here in the United States, and he said he had to create a rule to keep himself healthy on, like, what he allowed to really get into his, his head and his heart was number one. Do they love God? Do they love the church? And do they love me? And if they don't meet those three criteria, then I'm sorry, I'm not really going to let what you have to say impact me. Now, for whoever you are listening, then, you know, what are those things for you? I mean, obviously, I think this person should, should have a love for you and want your best interest, like a selfless sort of care. But what are the one or two other things that might help you filter that? And I think it's helped me as someone who can be quite polarizing in different ways because I have a big, loud personality and seeking out self awareness. Sometimes you draw that even from people who just don't like you and how you show up, and that's okay. But it does allow you to be impacted by the right words and the right people.

Kenny Lange [00:33:59]:
So I really appreciate that share and that wisdom. If people want to know more about you, about creative nomads and your work, or just ask you some questions following up from this conversation, where would you send them?

Jason Rutel [00:34:13]:
They can check out our website, creativenomads.com. um, you can find me on LinkedIn or Instagram. I probably spend the most of my time over on Instagram and Facebook. Um, but fortunately, I am the only Jason Rutel. So if you google me, I am like the first page or two of Google.

Kenny Lange [00:34:30]:
So nice. I'm competing with a few other Kenny langs in the world, but I feel like I'm dominating them. So, um, you know, it's just. That's actually why I have this podcast, so I could put my name out there every week for years on end. But I always appreciate talking with you, your insight, your perspective. Thank you for sharing that today. I hope to have you back and maybe share a little something from the road once that takes off, so we'll have some fun there. Maybe it won't take us 35 minutes to hit record on the podcast.

Kenny Lange [00:35:05]:
Thank you so much. If you are listening to this and you've gotten value number one, thank you. You made it to the end of the episode and I appreciate that. But if you were impacted by this conversation or any others, pay it forward. Help somebody else find this by like subscribe rate review. It would mean a lot to me, and I'm sure it would mean a lot to somebody else who might be in the same place. You are a few steps behind and could use the encouragement and the wisdom of the guests that come on and find me or the show anywhere. Find podcasts are made, but also on LinkedIn and the website.

Kenny Lange [00:35:44]:
But until next time, change the way you think you'll change the way you lead. We'll see.