How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

HLT Ian McCoog Full Interview
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Ian McCoog: [00:00:00] don't just jump at every opportunity because it's there.

You have to jump at the opportunities that are right for you. And it's kind of the same thing with the leadership theories. There are ones that will speak to specific people, depending on their personality, depending on their situation of where they are in their career. And I want them to take those and say, okay, this is something I'm really into.

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Kenny Lange: welcome to the How Leaders Think Podcast, a show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Ian McCoog. He is the author of Leadership Bites, an Approachable, an Approachable Handbook for Emerging Leaders. It's not about eating, although it is bite-sized chunks. I'm, I think I'm just hungry at this point. His work takes a storytelling approach to leadership. Leadership Bites is available everywhere. Fine books are sold 'cause it is a fine book.

Welcome to the [00:01:00] show, Ian.

Ian McCoog: Thank you, Kenny. Thanks for having me and for being so complimentary of my work.

Kenny Lange: I, I, I'm excited. I I love anything bite sized including one of my children. She's a little shorter. She actually has a. She got a, what is it, A hoodie and it says, I'm not short, I'm penguin sized. So maybe that could be like a follow-up book is like penguin sized bites of leadership.

Ian McCoog: Yes. I've also seen the fun sized one. I'm not short on fun sized. That's good. That's a good

Kenny Lange: There you go. Fun size. She, she has a lot of fun. She has a great, great attitude. Her brothers and sisters could take a note from her. They don't listen to the podcast, so I'm not worried about them perceiving that a certain way. Tell me, Ian, what is on your mind?

Ian McCoog: Well, thanks for having me on Kenny. I, I'm a researcher who does a lot with leadership, as we've kind of talked about before. I came on the show today and one of the things that you and I have discussed that I think is really important to [00:02:00] contemporary leadership theory and people who are leading organizations is this, this notion of we have to get things done.

We also want to value people. And how do we strike that good balance between checking all the boxes and making sure that everything is done, that our organization needs us to do. While also making sure that people are feeling valued and you know, want to continue on, not only with the organization, but moving forward with a shared vision that that gets your group, your organization, your business, your school, whatever it is, where they want to go.

Kenny Lange: Yeah, the, and. When you say it like that, you're like, of course this is what we're all trying to do. But that's not what ends up happening in, in the workplace. And anytime someone says, Hey, this is the, the work and the research I'm doing and, and the, the good I'm trying to put into the world it usually makes me think, what is it that is happening that makes that endeavor necessary? [00:03:00] Because usually we're trying to do that when we feel it's missing at least in the vast majority or it's not the prevailing wisdom. So what would you say the prevailing wisdom or, or current thinking and practice is in the workplace that makes what you're doing so necessary?

Ian McCoog: Yeah, one, one of the things that that I look at is this notion of transactional leadership and transformational leadership.

Kenny Lange: Hmm.

Ian McCoog: Transactional leadership is, is is the idea of I'm exchanging hours for dollars, I'm getting tasks accomplished as my supervisor asked me to. And transformational leadership is where we take a more active role to kind of get to know our, our people's strengths and their values and the things that they wanna accomplish, and things that make them feel professionally fulfilled.

I think when you put it that way, it's so easy to just say, well, I wanna be a transformational leader all the time. Why would I ever do anything transactional? When I, of course, I wanna value my people and I want them to do the best that they can. But the, the grim reality [00:04:00] is no matter what your industry is there are transactional tasks that need to get done.

The leader kind of has to, has to play back and forth between that, that head and heart kind of notion. I just finished reading Kirsten S's book called Head and Heart Leadership, and I've been thinking a lot about that, that, that it's not just that we have to always get things done and we have to make all the head decisions.

And it's also that we can't always lead with our hearts either because there are productivity tasks that just need. To get done. So that's something that I have been thinking about quite a bit lately and, and what I've, the conclusion I've come to almost is that it, it is really and truly a balance.

When we have to get tasks done, we have to have the people who are achieving those tasks, hearts and minds in, in. As a priority so that they feel valued while at the same time inspiring them to do the things that we need [00:05:00] ultimately to get done. So, I think when I first started thinking about this, it seemed really easy to just say, well, of course I wanna value every single person I come in contact with.

I want them to be their best because when they are their best, we are at our best. But ultimately, there are decisions that have to be made. There are scarce resources that that have to be spread around our organization. And we have to decide on a on a, a vision and a and a direction. And sometimes when that direction doesn't go where pe where certain people within your organization want it to.

They can be disappointed. However, if they believe in you as a leader and you as a person, then they may be upset that things didn't work out the way that they wanted, but they trust that you are, are taking the organization in the direction that is best and that ultimately will help them achieve their goals in addition to the organization's goal.

Kenny Lange: Yeah, man, that that that's a huge thing. It sounds like, [00:06:00] you know, if people can trust. Who you are as a leader. Then disagreement is bound to come if we work with anybody for any length of time. But so long as I trust who you are and that you have the, the best interest of the company, the, the department, the team in mind, then. I'm not prone to disengage and suddenly like pull back my discretionary effort and, and commitment to performance. Is that fair to say?

Ian McCoog: Yeah. And I really feel like that's where we are as far as this continuum of leadership theory. As you had mentioned, my book kind of traces the history of leadership from the 1880s up to current theories. And some of the current theories are very heart heavy theories. And I thought, you know, this is, this is wonderful.

If the world were, you know, gum drops and rainbows and, and everything was just. Always hunky do, and we didn't have any hard decisions to make. But in [00:07:00] our conversation about what's going on contemporarily in leadership theory, that's what I thought of. I, I think we have gone in an excellent direction.

We have moved from some theories that weren't very great. We thought that there were traits of leaders and those traits were fixed and. That's proven to be untrue. We've looked at behaviors of, of of leaders and how people can innately be their best while also making adjustments to help with their team.

And now I think we've gotten to a point where it, it is all about empowering and making followers feel like they are seen and they are heard. The big move is that we are, we're finding ways to practically do that. And that's really the issue that I wanted to bring to the show today.

Kenny Lange: I there, there's so much I love about that. In, in part, like I'm, you know, I'm wearing the t-shirt for those of you who are just listening just imagine with your, in, in your mind, but the, the framework that I uses, system and soul. And so those system things, we've gotta get things done. But, but there is a [00:08:00] soul a soulful part of the organization that we have to tend to and, and we should ignore it at our own peril, which sounds a lot like what you're saying.

In that maybe going to the, the beginning in like the 1880s and, you know, a more fixed thinking way of thinking. That was all productivity, all system. System, system, system, you know, factories, that sort of thing. And then we, it sounds like we may be in danger of falling in a, in the other ditch. And I, I hear you saying like, it's a, it's a tension to be managed. It's not all one and all the other, right? Like there's a a downside to going all in on I, on either ideal right.

Ian McCoog: I would totally agree with that. Ken, I, I think somewhere along the line manager became a dirty word. Leader became the the ultra clean word. We were all leaders and none of us were managers. Like, that was, that was a bad thing if you were managing people [00:09:00] because it's your job to lead people.

And in some ways that's true, but we look at some of the more modern theories, more modern in that they are within the last 30 or 40 years, but they've had some time to be tested. We look at like the leadership challenge. Everybody loves who's the Posner in the leadership challenge. But one of the main takeaways that I had from, from doing research on those gentlemen, their theory is that people want competence.

I mean, they have talked to leaders for over 30 years. They've done the surveys, they've crunched the data and there are, you know, followers who said, I want a trailblazing leader. I want somebody out front who is making big swooping changes and you know, has this huge grand vision for the future.

But more often than not, what people reported was, I want somebody who is competent, who knows what the goal is, what the industry is, where we are trying to go, because that's someone who I [00:10:00] can trust. It builds that psychological safety of this person isn't trying to do anything crazy, but they are trying to move us forward.

And they're going to take everyone's thoughts into account as they do that.

Kenny Lange: So would you draw a distinction then between having the grand vision for the future and competence about where we're going? Do you think that those are, are those at odds with each other or are they complimentary or are we conflating some words?

Ian McCoog: I think they're part of the same transition. I think we start with this notion of I'm competent. I know what I'm doing. You know, people, I, I've been put in this position of leadership because I have proven that competence over time, that I am ready to assume a role where people are going to follow me, they're gonna follow my my thought process.

And it becomes that shared vision. So not necessarily, you know, trailblazing, we're gonna do something revolutionary. 'cause I, I don't think [00:11:00] every organization or group needs to do something revolutionary. Probably only the failing ones actually have to do something revolutionary. It's the notion of that gradual and steady pace that's slow and steady wins the race.

Are we better today than we were yesterday? And that compounds until eventually you get to where you want to go. And then the journey's never over. You know, I've achieved goal X that I have set out what is now Goal Y. How has the market changed? How have the needs of, in my case since I'm professor, my students changed in the time that it took us to achieve that goal.

And now what should be the new goal and how do we steadily get to achieving that goal as well?

Kenny Lange: Yeah, I, I heard a quote that said consistency beats intensity. Which was tough for me to stomach because I pride myself on intensity. But I've really had to learn the, the value of [00:12:00] consistency. Would you say like in your research that that's sort of born out of like what you've seen in terms of patterns of success?

Ian McCoog: In terms of long term success for sure. You know, so the, the tortoise and the hare, of course, I think is where probably most people's brains lead as we're talking about this. In the book, I have a tortoise and hare kind of, scenario. So it's a sales team. Again, that's, that's not my industry, but it's an industry that I research for the book.

You know, we have a, a hare. Character who is just, you know, goal oriented and how do we become the best and how do we do it as quickly as possible? And then we have a tortoise character where people feel more valued. They're making those strides, they're learning as they're going. And it becomes an environment where one feels, again, psychological safety.

One feels like this person has my back. They know I'm gonna make mistakes because I'm human, and they know that we are going to continue to move forward as a team. The other [00:13:00] scenario, maybe the psychological safety is lacking a little bit because the focus is on results more so, than the growth of the people on the team.

You know, we'll just sub somebody out if they can't keep up. You know, it's a, it's a fast paced lifestyle. That's how it goes. At the end of this scenario I don't really tell the reader what has happened, but you can kind of, you know, intu it. The Hare team does really well, really quickly. The tortoise team incrementally does better, does better, does better.

And then over a long term, as that burnout kind of comes in on the hares team, unless you have a steady supply people, you're just gonna keep flipping in and flipping out, flipping in and flipping out. You know, the tortoise will eventually catch up. It speaks to the culture of that organization. I mean, do I really want to go work for an organization where I know we are going to have a great deal of success really quickly?

But I might not be there in six months. Maybe I do. Maybe I'm just [00:14:00] looking for a quick payday and you know, this is great for me and I'll move on to the next thing. But I think most people would rather say, I want to be in a place where we get better, not worse. But we do it incrementally where we can stick together, we can have lasting relationships, we can have meaningful relationships with our leadership and work towards that common goal.

Kenny Lange: Right. And, and when I hear that, and I think anybody who's listening, when they hear that, they're like, yeah, of course. I would want to just always be, always be improving, always be getting better. If that were, if that made so much sense, then we, we wouldn't have a need for, the, the, the story, the fable, and I think it's, it's really the, the hair whether it's a team or a person I think it's really seductive the hair gets a lot of attention faster.

Which you know, in, in your book the, talks about [00:15:00] for emerging leaders. So I'm also thinking of those emerging leaders. If they're listening to this they're trying to make a splash, they're trying to get attention. There's, there's a thousand other leaders just like me in this, in this organization. What's gonna make me stand out? What's gonna, you know, make me pop? And so we butt up against, well, I gotta stand out, but improving and showing myself gradually, incrementally. Sounds like a, a great way to get behind as opposed to getting ahead. Can you, can you speak to, to that tension?

Ian McCoog: Yeah. And, and thank you for, for set setting this up so well because that's kind of, it's one of the notions behind the book. There are a lot of notions behind the book, obviously. One of them is storytelling. I feel like we learn best from stories. I could have written a very dry leadership theory book that says, this is leadership theory throughout the ages and, you know, this is what it is.

But one of the [00:16:00] things that you just called out Kenny, that very few people who I've, who I've talked to about this call out, is the notion that this book is for emerging leaders. And the reason why I had chosen that as the title the reason why my publisher added the word approachable in there is because it's for people who are trying to stand out, who are trying to make that leap.

I think anybody can learn from this book in, in any leadership position, but really somebody who says like, okay, I am new to this, or This is the next step I want to take in my career or in my profession. There's a couple reasons why Leadership Bites is a good book. And I think one because it is approachable the kind of may explain things in ways that make sense.

To the reader. But it also gives you that opportunity to stand out because it's comprehensive. It's a comprehensive, like this is what we have thought about leadership the whole time. And what I want the reader to do is find the ones that specifically work for them. You know, and that no spoilers, but in the [00:17:00] conclusion of the book one of the, one of the ideas that I present is don't just jump at every opportunity because it's there.

You have to jump at the opportunities that are right for you. And it's kind of the same thing with the leadership theories. There are ones that will speak to specific people, depending on their personality, depending on their situation of where they are in their career. And I want them to take those and say, okay, this is something I'm really into.

You know, contingency model. There's been a lot of talk about contingency models lately. Hey, now I read this book. It was three or four pages about the contingency model. I. I get where Fred Fielder was coming from when he wrote about it in the seventies, and then I read this story and that story is something that can be used not only approachable as the reader to do, to do it themselves, to understand it, but when they take that to their organization you know, in the case of the contingency theory it's a, it's a story of an Olympic runner.

She has her own book aLexi Pappas. Her book is called Bravey and she tells this [00:18:00] very interesting story about how her coach had said, you're not going to win. So we're at the Rio Olympics. Coach said you, there's no way you're gonna win. There are

Kenny Lange: other ladies in this race who

Ian McCoog: are a lot faster than you, that are ranked a lot higher than you.

What I want you to do is to go out and run your best race and we'll see how things go. And ultimately she finished 12th, which does not get you a medal in the Olympics, but she broke her country's record in 10,000 meters. So she can hang on that notion for the rest of her life that I am, I am the best 10,000 meter runner in the, in the history of my country, even though I finished 12th in the Olympics.

And then I think with Alexi's story, which, which is even more impactful. She's used that success to help people in in other ways. So she's an advocate for mental health, for athletes. And I do not know her. I've never talked to her, but in reading her book, it seems [00:19:00] like she says, I trained my whole life for this race.

I'm glad that things worked out the way that they did. But the most impact that I'm gonna make in my life is helping others not running a race.

Kenny Lange: Wow. Which I mean that takes a lot to admit, especially somebody who was even fit to compete in the Olympics. Like that just takes so much sacrifice and commitment. So for her to see that is really admirable I think that takes vision. I wanna go back to something. Speaking of vision, I wanna go back to something that you said, which is, you know, can, can I find the, the, leadership models practices within the book or, or maybe just out in the wild? Not every, not all of 'em are right for me right now. How do you recommend these emerging leaders figure out which ones are. Right for them. You know, when, when I coach companies on how, how do you make decisions? And we've [00:20:00] built a roadmap and it articulates vision and positioning. But you know, one of the big things is what's your culture, your core values, your organizational habits and, and the attributes that you want to be true about this place. And based on that and some other goals, you can go, we take advantage of that opportunity, not that one. We, we, we want to go push harder into this market and retreat out of this one. How are you seeing successful emerging leaders start to figure out and select, or what do you recommend so that they can adopt and learn from the ones that might make the biggest impact for them today and tomorrow?

Ian McCoog: I, I think a, a big concept that you just explained very articulately but didn't say specifically is the power of reflection, and it's reflecting upon not only myself as a leader of my personality traits, what things do I innately bring to the table that can help the organization. What things [00:21:00] can I adjust, maybe do a little bit differently for the sake of my team or for the sake of my organization, but also that importance of reflecting about the organization itself.

You know, what is our symbolic frame as Bowman and Deal, put it in their frame. This four frame model. I teach the four frame model, and that's the one that students always struggle with the most. And honestly, it's the hardest one to think about, but it can be the most important one. We all know what the rules and regulations of our organization are.

You know, those are pretty easy to figure out. But when we ask what are our values, what do we stand for? What are the, you know, what are the things that if they were gone tomorrow, we would fight like heck to get them back. And that's our symbolic frame. We come to that, like I said, about on reflection about our, our organization.

So I think those are two things that emerging leaders and, you know, any leader honestly you know, self-reflection of yourself self-awareness of the things that you're good at, but then also [00:22:00] reflection about your organization. What are the things that your

Kenny Lange: organization wants

Ian McCoog: you to do because they're the things that they value the most.

Kenny Lange: Right. And, and finding the the overlap gets you a nice Venn diagram of what am I good at? What does my company need? And those would probably be the places where you could find a. You, you would have l see less options or, or more narrowed field of where the opportunities to stand out from the crowd might lie.

Ian McCoog: Yeah, absolutely. I agree.

Kenny Lange: Since you mentioned it and I'm actually curious about it now can you do just like a brief summary of the, the four frames? Like, and, and maybe why, why is that one so significant?

Ian McCoog: Sure. Yeah, so Bowman and Deal came out with a, a really fascinating and really versatile model in the, in the late eighties, I believe it was. So there was the structural frame. There's a human [00:23:00] resource frame, there's a political frame, and the symbolic frame. So structural frame, again, that, that's the easy one.

Those are the rules. Those are the regulations. Where are the navigational beacons of where I'm allowed to go and what I'm allowed to do? And, and how do I avoid, you know, falling outta them? Human resources is as it sounds like the department at your work is you know, what talent do we have and how do we put people in the best places to succeed?

One, one of my favorite stories in the book I talk about a left fielder when, when I talk about the human resource frame. I'm a big baseball fan and, and I like to say, you know, no offense to any left fielders out there, but you are really the extra guy. Like, you're not fast enough to play center.

You, you don't have a good enough arm to throw from, right? You might be a bit of a liability in the field, but you're there on purpose. 'cause you can probably hit, which is good, and you can play a little bit. I presented this in class once and I had a former college [00:24:00] baseball player. And without setting him up at all, I asked him like, who's the left fielder is on the team?

And he said he's the guy who can't play the field that can hit the, and he was about to curse and then caught himself and said crap out of the ball, which was great. But that's human resource frame. It's what talent do we have and how do we put them in place in places to succeed. So left field is a great example.

Like that guy may not be able to field worth a lick, but if he can hit the ball, we have to put him in a place. Where he could be successful. Political, just what it sounds like is competition. Some people always think competition between organizations, between companies also deals with you know, struggles for power within an organization.

And we don't always think about those initially. And then that, like I said, symbolic very hard to define, but very important frame of any organization is, you know, what do we stand for? What are we trying to do? You know, when, when this company was founded, what did they wanna [00:25:00] achieve, and are we still doing that?

Kenny Lange: Wow. I mean, yeah, those are, those are some pretty big buckets. And, and so you use these frames to sort of, as you evaluate situations and, and opportunities both collectively and individually.

Ian McCoog: Yeah. It can be situation to situation. It can be, again, it could be an organizational reflection. It could be a personal reflection. If I'm a person who is a rule follower, which, which I am, I'm probably pretty heavy on the procedural frame. I, you know, I'm also kind of like a lovey dovey, tree hugry kind of guy.

So I have an easier time finding the symbolic frame. I don't like conflict. So political frame is one that I struggle with. So personally, I know that. But also any you know, situation that comes up in an organization, I ask my students to kind of reflect upon a time in their life personally or professionally when they were leading an organization and how they could have made more sense of a sticky situation by looking at it through the four frames.

[00:26:00] That's what makes it very versatile. So it's, it's applicable to self, but it's also applicable to situation.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Because it would give you a quick way. To gain a more full different perspectives that you could blend together instead of being stuck in your, your own perspective. Right.

Ian McCoog: Yeah, absolutely.

Kenny Lange: Which again, gets back to what you were saying is just the individually as a, as an emerging leader spending some time in self-reflection cultivating self-awareness, and, but that seems like the crowd that might struggle with it the most, right? Just because they're, they're younger, they're energetic, they've got board approved, all these things. Jokingly when people ask me like, well, how are you doing? If a lot's going on, I'll tell 'em I'm going mock Jesus with my hair on fire. And that's what I think when I think about emerging leaders is it's just a, a flurry of activity. And what, what patterns did [00:27:00] you see for those emerging leaders that were standing out that allowed them to break from the flurry and make their way to become more reflective, more self-aware.

Ian McCoog: So the book is really a handbook, and that's also in the title, also added by my publisher. My publisher was very, was thinking pretty far

Kenny Lange: got a good publisher, you might wanna shout 'em out or something.

Ian McCoog: So yeah, the book, the book does not present any case studies or anything like that. This is a notion of me as it, well, not me personally, but me, the reader as a professional.

Who is kind of at a crossroads and how do, and maybe I am approaching it, as you had said, like trying to avoid the flurry and getting wrapped up and, and focusing so much on competition. And, and I guess the notion of that kind of is smarter, not harder. So what the book does is, is it provides you knowledge that you can step back from a situation, kind of analyze it, and then decide what the best way is [00:28:00] to move forward.

So I mean, again, for example, my students are medical students. Oftentimes what they write about is is when they were the head of a club or an interest group or something like that. And people had had different ideas. Or there were demands on time, obviously because they're in school, and how do you find time to do all of the extra things?

And that is the, the flurry of activity that you were talking about. And oftentimes what they say is, I got so wrapped up in the moment to moment survival of the fury that I kind of forgot about the big picture. So it's kind of taking that step back and thinking, okay, well what is a rational approach to this?

What is going to cause me less stress further down the line that I can implement right now.

Kenny Lange: Gotcha. That, that makes me think of, you know, the, it's, it's cliched at this point, but still, I still like it. The working on the business as opposed to in the business

sort [00:29:00] of thinking like you could be working in the club as opposed to on the club or, or whatever that might be.

Now, because you're, you're training medical students you know, people with the, the title of doctor are almost instantly thrust into a leadership position. Simply by virtue of a substantial technical knowledge. Right. So how, how is your approach to you know, young professionals that you're, you're teaching and leading how do you try to help them? Because there, there are certain professions where that's gonna happen. Especially professionals where from a title perspective.

They, they have a leadership and influential place. But maybe it wasn't something like what we've been describing so far, which is I'm a young leader in an organization and I'm working my way up by proving myself and driving results and, and all these different things. So how, how does that shift when it's almost like [00:30:00] a fast pass at, at Disney World and you get to go to the head of the line?

Ian McCoog: Yeah, it's different forms of knowledge. That's actually some research that a few colleagues and I are working on now that, that when our students become doctors, they are often the most educated and most knowledgeable person on the team. And as you said, immediately, some of them are 24, 25 years old, you know, they went to undergrad, they went to medical school, and boom, here you are.

One of the, one of the things that we look at though is is the concept of ad hoc teaming. I was surprised in our preliminary research to find that 72% of medical teams are different every single time. So the chances of you working with the same team on the same patient, the next time there is a patient encounter there, it's only 28%.

So chances are you're going to have to work with a lot of different people. You might get different nurses, you might get different specialists, you might get different general practitioners, and that's where the knowledge the [00:31:00] different types of knowledge really come in. So I may be a pulmonologist if the patient is struggling with breathing.

I am the most technically sound and qualified person. I'm probably taking the lead. In this case when it comes to that form of knowledge, however, I might have seen six other patients today and maybe the nurse has been taking care of this person all day and has some information that is going to be vital to their care that I know nothing about because I've been running around from patient to patient all day.

In that case, that's a different form of knowledge. And then that person. Is the one with the expertise in that specific case when you're talking about that aspect of the team. So I mean, that's one of the amazing things that I, I don't think we always think about. I. We look to, okay, well who's the leader?

The leader's probably the most educated person around, right? Smartest person on the team. The person, you know, in the best suit is the, is the person who's obviously in [00:32:00] charge here. But that's not always true. You may be the expert in one area of knowledge and have to be, you know, have the, the.

The lack of ego and the acceptance that you may have to step back and let somebody else take the lead because they are specializing in whatever knowledge is at play in the in the current scenario.

Kenny Lange: And I could see that translating over into business world where, you know, you have people with positional titles, but you I love what Steve Jobs famously said. We don't hire smart people and tell 'em what to do. We hire smart people so they can tell us what to do. So I may be the as a leader, I may be in a position where I, I've gotta be sort of the aggregator, synthesizer of these experts, of the different forms of knowledge. I may be the most educated on something but not, I can't be the most educated on everything.

Ian McCoog: Right.

Kenny Lange: And so [00:33:00] being someone who, who is educated. You can walk into a situation and I think it's easy for you to be like, well, I paid all this money and I've taken all these classes and I've gone to these, you know, the, these institutions. And I've gotten all these gold stars and shouldn't people just automatically recognize my awesomeness? How, how do you recommend that they step into those rooms where it is sort of like a different team every time? 'cause sometimes if you could, you know, those 28%, you build relationship, there's trust.

Like you were saying earlier, is, I, I can trust who you are, even if I disagree. But if I'm constantly like starting over, that can be really hard. And now I don't have, I don't have the relational equity to trade on. For that.

And there might be a little less forgiveness in the interaction. So how would you [00:34:00] recommend that leaders approach it if they are highly trained, highly educated to make the most of that and, and sort of bolster the relational equity or the influence that they may have.

Because especially like in any business or any organization, reputations start to precede you. And that can help or hurt you, right?

Ian McCoog: Yeah, I, I really think it comes down to that situational awareness. You know, we, we talk a lot about emotional intelligence and, and one of my go-tos is Daniel Goldman's resident leadership, which is based on. Emotional intelligence, which, you know, gave, gave him the big, the big fame. But it's that situational awareness.

It, it's that awareness of how do I contribute to the best outcome? And sometimes that is, you know, parking rego, and. Listening more so than talking which is hard when you're a highly trained person because [00:35:00] sometimes you feel like you should be talking more often, you should be out front, you should be leading.

But you know, I I, I've always, I've always heard the adage and, you know, I don't know who coined it at this point as we're talking about, like hackney sayings. You know, God gave you two ears and one mouth. I say that to myself a lot in meetings. There are a lot of times that somebody says something and I really say like, oh man, I got something so good to contribute to that.

I would love to give

Kenny Lange: like a retort. But

Ian McCoog: then I remember God gave me two ears and one mouth. I'm gonna sit back, I'm gonna listen. And when it comes to me is when I'll impart this knowledge, because by the time it comes around to me, maybe we're talking about something completely different. And and I can contribute in other ways.

Kenny Lange: Yeah, I'm, I'm having flashbacks of my dad's voice saying that to me repeatedly as I was growing up. It's like two ears, one mouth. You should communicate in that ratio. Yeah. Yes, sir. Well, Ian, if if someone's listening and they're like, you know, I, I think I'm an [00:36:00] emerging leader. I'm an up and comer. I'm, I'm trying to stand out. What's something, a first step, a baby step that, that this person could take in the next 24 hours with little to no money invested to make progress towards maybe emerging further.

Ian McCoog: Yeah. And I think we were leading right into this question really well when I talked about resident leadership, and that's one that, that I really believe in, that you can do today for zero money as you had said because it, it's just a very effective, you know, thought exercise for you to do.

I keep saying eventually I'm gonna need a new example for this because no one is gonna know what a tuning fork is anymore. However, I think of a tuning fork, and oftentimes doctors I work with are like, oh, trust me. I know that's how I used to do my hearing tests on on infants. They're like, I got it.

But when you strike a tuning fork, it's loudest and it vibrates quickest when it first is hit. Eventually it slows down and the hum gets a little bit fainter and a [00:37:00] little bit fader and a little bit fainter. But it has made its way throughout the, the entire, you know, environment of where you are. So think of making a decision is striking that tuning fork, the people that hear it loudest are the people closest to you.

Okay, so the people that directly report to you are the ones that are going to hear that decision that are gonna, you know, understand it most articulately, and it's probably going to affect them directly the most.

Kenny Lange: Mm-hmm.

Ian McCoog: As that continues to vibrate and the hum continues to get a little bit quieter, it goes throughout the organization, it goes to the people that report to those people, and the people that report to those people, and the people that report to those people.

And you know, perhaps the third shift maintenance man has nothing to do with that decision that you had made. However, it has made its way all the way to him or her. It has gone through everyone in the organization, it has touched everyone in the organization [00:38:00] and as leaders that that is what we do. It is our job to make that decision, to strike that tuning fork, knowing that it's gonna resonate throughout the organization.

So what Daniel Goldman tells us is and this is my free advice to your listeners be careful. What you put out because it will resonate throughout the organization. If you put out positivity, you are going to resonate positivity throughout the organization. If you put out negativity he calls that dissonant leadership, you're gonna put out negativity throughout the organization.

And it may not be fair 'cause I'm just one person. Why? You know, why, why does this all fall back on me? And the simple answer is because you're leader. You're the, someone has to make the decision and someone decided that it should be you, and they hope that you're doing it in a, in a positive way that's gonna help everybody move forward.

Kenny Lange: Right. Yeah. When you're, when you're a leader so many people are, are act as mirrors for your own [00:39:00] leadership, sort of like being a parent.

You know, your, your kids can be a mirror for good and for ill in, in that, in that situation. That's, that's really helpful. Ian, and now you've given me a, a, a, a cool image in my head.

And I, I may, I may steal the, the tuning fork

thing and try to teach it to my kids. But if, if somebody wanted to know more about you, your work and, and those sorts of things, or reach out with some follow up questions, where would you send them?

Ian McCoog: Sure. You could always go to my website. I've learned the value of a website now that I'm a published author. And it's just my name. It's ian oo.com. I have updates there of whatever it is I'm working on where I'm speaking. You know, ways you can contact me if you wanna have more of a conversation.

Absolutely go there. The book again is Leadership Bytes an Approachable Handbook for Emerging Leaders. My publisher, as we've mentioned a few times, but I haven't mentioned by name, is rootstock Publishing in Montpelier, Vermont. Great independent publisher who, you know, they're fantastic for me to work with, get this [00:40:00] thing into the world and really you can, you can get it everywhere.

So, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore. I, I'm also learning the value of Amazon reviews. So if you buy it from Amazon, leave a review. Apparently that's more of a, a thing that I anticipated when I started. But yeah, check out my website. Check out the book. You can get it anywhere you get books.

Kenny Lange: Excellent. Well, thank you so much em, for spending some time with me and and dropping some, some knowledge and some wisdom on us, some, some bites of leadership knowledge. Dare I say I really appreciate it and I look forward to the additional research that you said that y'all were working on.

I'll, I'll be intrigued to hear results from that. To, to the listener, thank you so much for spending part of your day with myself and Ian. We hope you were not only entertained, but that you really walked away with a new way to think and lead and that you'll put what Ian suggested into practice quickly if you would. Like rate, review, subscribe, whatever the right button [00:41:00] is on, on your platform of choice it would mean a lot. You can leave a review much like an Amazon review. I appreciate reviews, but I wanna make sure that all of these episodes are impactful. I have a lot of fun making them, they're fun conversations, but I wanna make sure I'm bringing.

Guess and topics that you care about and would help you. In addition, when you interact with the show on any platform, it helps put it into the algorithm and pop up in front of more people to be discoverable and you never know that that could be the, the next thing to unlock somebody's step in leadership. And that's a free and easy way to pay it forward. And won't that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. But until next time, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead. We'll see you.