How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Kenny Lange [00:00:00]:
When I say generational differences in the workforce, I think most of the folks that we work with think this is older to younger of how to tolerate shape the younger generations. And that's not my point. My point is how to use a generational difference as a potential asset in the workforce. And so this goes from young to old as well.

Kenny Lange [00:00:22]:
Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I'm your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Evan Young. He is an executive trainer at Express Pros Training, but before that he was a commander in the U.S. navy as a naval aviator who spent 20 years flying helicopters and leading teams from 2 to 1200. Yes, that's 1-200-that, which is incredible. And he's got some cool stories. Not all of them can be shared publicly. But after his Navy career, he moved here to Tyler, Texas, which is a fantastic city city with his wife and four children where he now spends his time as a youth pastor, baseball coach, executive trainer, and just all around awesome human being.

Kenny Lange [00:01:10]:
Welcome to the show, Evan.

Kenny Lange [00:01:12]:
What's up Kenny? Thanks for having me, man.

Kenny Lange [00:01:14]:
It is going to be a great conversation. I'm excited that we get to do this. Also, I didn't include it wasn't in the official bio. But if anybody looks over your, your right shoulder, they will also see your name pooper. Which maybe that's going to weave its way in or it'll just be for those just listening, just flip over to YouTube, figure out how to, how to find the YouTube so you can see what the heck I'm talking about. But the, the, the Navy, like other military have really cool nicknames for their people and sometimes the weirdest ones stick.

Kenny Lange [00:01:49]:
Hey, want to, if you want a cool call sign, join the Air Force, right? If you want a call sign that's got a good story, join the Navy, right?

Kenny Lange [00:02:00]:
Well tell me Evan, what is on your mind, man?

Kenny Lange [00:02:03]:
Kenny, that's a good question. And this really stems probably a little bit from my career transition from like you said in the intro, leading a squadron of 1200 people where I had a lot of younger folks working for us as executive officer of the Navy's largest helicopter training squadron. So we trained and made pilots and air crew for the next generation. We had a big cadre of lieutenants that worked for us, about 51 to be exact. And they were a mid age to younger age millennials. So just keep that in your brain for right now. And then transitioning out of the Navy Retiring, moving to Tyler, Texas, and then going into organizations where we do a lot of coaching, leadership development, management training. And something that always comes up that I've experienced is generational differences in the workforce.

Kenny Lange [00:02:50]:
And it just seems to be on everybody's mind. And so that's what's on my mind today.

Kenny Lange [00:02:54]:
I love that. And it's something that you get, you hear batted around quite a bit or people are just trying to throw in some buzzwords like how to lead the next generation, how to do multi generational. How do we handle all these different things? Let's start with what is the sort of current thinking or prevailing wisdom around multigenerational workforces or workplaces?

Kenny Lange [00:03:18]:
That's a good question. And it's, it's loaded, right? Cause you said two things, the current thinking and the prevailing wisdom. And I would say the current thinking and prevailing wisdom on our opposite ends when it comes to generational.

Kenny Lange [00:03:31]:
Interesting.

Kenny Lange [00:03:31]:
How many times have you heard or said all these kids today, they just don't finish a sentence, they just don't get it. Or if they only had better work ethic back in my day. And this is a two way conversation, right? When I, when I say generational differences in the workforce, my brain and I think most of the folks that we work with think this is older to younger, how to toler or how to shape the younger generations. And that's not my point. My point is how to manage really how to, how to use a generational difference as a potential asset in the workforce. And so this goes from young to old as well.

Kenny Lange [00:04:07]:
It sounds like you are embracing more of a both and type of thinking than an either or. It's going both ways. Is that fair to say?

Kenny Lange [00:04:20]:
Yeah, that's exactly right. And it, well, let me start with how, where it stemmed from, where I first started to notice it. Everybody gets older, right? In my Navy career, about the 12 to 14 year mark, you know, I would draw, I'm a big movie quote guy, just like a lot of people. And I would say to some of my young sailors, okay, McFly, let's go, McFly. And they're like, mcwhoo. And I'd be like, what, what do you, what do you mean? What do you mean? MC who? McFly. Come on. And maybe, maybe some of you right now are like, what are you talking about? So that was my first indicator and this was 10 years ago, but it is definitely a both end.

Kenny Lange [00:04:53]:
So that yes, people get older, right? But specifically in the Navy, every year we were facing a new generation, right? So you could make an argument that I did 20 years. You could make an argument that I saw 40, 40 years worth of generational differences when I was new, 20 years in front of me, when I was at the 20 year mark, 20 years below me. And every year is not a new generation. I understand what I just said, but we would get a new tick of sailors or young pilots in each year. And my very last command, when I was in charge of, you know, a lot of people, that's when it. That's when it really hit me, is maybe. Maybe it's because I was at the top, or maybe it was because the generational differences were actually really screaming and pointing themselves out to me. Gotcha.

Kenny Lange [00:05:34]:
Yeah. Because when you're. You're in the thick of it, you know, 10, 12 years in, you're floating in the middle. You're not too far from the newest people or the people that, you know, ended up where you were when you retired. I'm trying to think of. I've. I read this somewhere or heard this, or I'm just making it up. Either way, hopefully it sounds intelligent.

Kenny Lange [00:05:54]:
Do we have. I think we have more generations in the workplace than at any other time in history. Like, it seems to. The differences are bigger or more pronounced than they've ever been. And it's not just because generations aren't just an age thing. Right. Like, they're. They're a cultural thing.

Kenny Lange [00:06:16]:
And our culture has been shifting rapidly and only increasing in speed. And I think a lot of that is due to technology and our connectivity to different parts of the world. So can you talk a little bit about why is today's. Whether it's in the Navy, whether it's in for profit or nonprofits, or any place that people are gathering around a common cause. Why is it so different now than it was, say, maybe 30, 40 years ago?

Kenny Lange [00:06:46]:
Yep. Kenny, great question. I'm glad you asked. There's so much to cover here. And I'm gonna break this down into kind of three main areas. One, what you just said, how did we get here? And it. It centers around how many generations are actually in the workforce. So that's what I'll cover.

Kenny Lange [00:07:01]:
Two, what shapes a generation? What shapes the generation? What's that definition? And then three, what are some of the tendencies of the generations, whether we get there or not? But those are the three categories, right? To keep us from jumping. But to your point. And now, I did a ton of research on this topic, including Harvard Business Review, Korn Ferry articles. I read a book called Sticking Points. By Hayden Shaw. I present this to workshops for companies. And it was super convicting doing these four or five months of research on this. But your question was, how many generations are in the workforce today? Which I would say, how did we get here? And to answer that is, for the first time in history, there's five generations in the workforce.

Kenny Lange [00:07:36]:
Five.

Kenny Lange [00:07:37]:
So traditionalist boomers, Gen X, millennial, Gen Z, Gen Alpha exists, but they're not in the workforce yet.

Kenny Lange [00:07:44]:
They're.

Kenny Lange [00:07:44]:
They're young. How did we get here? How are they all in the workforce today? And it comes. It comes down to really three things. One is life expectancy. Okay? In the 1900s, life expectancy was 47 years. It's not very old. So people are living longer today. All the advancements, better eating, whatever, medicine, all the things, right? People are living longer to the speed of information that's available.

Kenny Lange [00:08:06]:
Think back into the early 1900s. How long did it take to print a newspaper? A week. Right. Then the early 30s, like a radio podcast written out. A podcast, right. A radio show comes out. Or, okay, and then you get the kind of 40s, 50s newspaper, short films and Disney, and three major movie network or television networks. Okay? So think of today, the speed of information.

Kenny Lange [00:08:27]:
And the reason that's important of how the there are more folks in the workforce today, different generations, is because people can contribute at an earlier age than ever before. Okay? So people live longer. So now you have traditionalists still in the workforce today. You have boomers, definitely still in the workforce today. And then you get Gen Z, who can start contributing to the workforce because of the speed of information. Live longer, speed of information. And then three, the old way was wait your turn.

Kenny Lange [00:08:53]:
You had to wait your dues.

Kenny Lange [00:08:55]:
Yeah, pay your dues, wait your turn. And that's not just culturally. It was. It was because those first two things weren't in place. People weren't living as long. And the speed of information was slow. Snail mail, Right. Really slow.

Kenny Lange [00:09:07]:
Right.

Kenny Lange [00:09:08]:
If you wanted to take over the farm or take over the factory, you had to wait till your grandpa died, and then it was the dad, the son and the son's son, the grandkids. And that was the only way to get into power, was wait your turn. And there were typically only three generations in the workforce then. And so then people live longer. Speed of information and wait your turn just doesn't work. If you do, if you wait your turn, you're going to be outrun by somebody else.

Kenny Lange [00:09:31]:
Which I certainly feel that as a elder millennial, I think is where I would Fall in. Although I've been told I have a much older soul than, than my generation. But. But you look around and you see that is you. There isn't this emphasis on like, apprenticeships or just enter the family business and, and doing that. You know, even if you do go to college, it still used to be you go to college to get sort of foundational information, but the practical stuff to contribute, you had to go and, and study under somebody and intern and do all these things and.

Kenny Lange [00:10:07]:
Exactly right.

Kenny Lange [00:10:07]:
And so now you could be fresh out of college and making major contributions to an enterprise or even not go to college.

Kenny Lange [00:10:16]:
That.

Kenny Lange [00:10:16]:
Which. That's a whole separate thing that I all have some fun opinions on, which people probably think it's like, oh, well, you have like a couple of degrees. You probably just think college is the bee's knees. I didn't mean for all of that to Ryan, but sometimes when you got it, you got it. And, but you know, how valuable is it now? Like, is. Is the whole risk reward thing, the risk of financial ruin and hardship. So as I see my peers, I was like, oh, they're doing this and they're doing this and oh, so we can, we can get after it. Because I was, I was raised in a smaller town.

Kenny Lange [00:10:52]:
My, My dad is of the. Who informs. A lot of my work ethic is of that. That boomer generation. And he just, you work hard, pay your dues, all those, those like, weight things. But as I moved into larger cities and made new connections and started hopping on video calls more frequent. See. Oh, wait, you were how old when you did what? And suddenly that, that.

Kenny Lange [00:11:16]:
It's not even directly, but it's that indirect peer pressure to like, hurry up and make a big difference. And I might argue that while there have been some really cool benefits, I think it's also done a disservice. Like, people have steered too far into the other ditch. And I'm curious what you've observed and what you've researched that go into that as maybe producing part of the tension in the workforce.

Kenny Lange [00:11:44]:
So maybe. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying or what you're asking. You're asking if the pressure to contribute at an earlier age or the ability to one at one of the two. It's either the pressure to. Or the ability to. Is that contributing to tension in the workforce because of multiple generations? Is that your question? Yes. Okay, man. I haven't really thought about that because really the research I did focused on the why generations think the way that they do and Then the attitude about that is if you can understand why someone thinks the way they do, it takes away the beef that's between those people.

Kenny Lange [00:12:19]:
Right? Yeah, but let me, Let me stick to your question. I would say that that's maybe more of an American or Western ideal because things today are instant. Right. When I explain the kind of differences, generations, the prevalency of technology shapes the way you think. There is a component there, certainly. And that is. That is definitely part of the tension is because people can fact check. Think Google, right.

Kenny Lange [00:12:41]:
So ultimate, you know, bar conversation killer. You're like, oh, did you hear so and so got traded to so and so and it got this much of a contract. You're like, no, he didn't. And then they look it up and they're like, it was this much of a contract. That's because the prevalency of technology, man, it's like the conversation killer you like. So, yeah, I think that certainly has part of it. And what you're describing is the ability to contribute earlier because of some of those things I've said that certainly forms like this era of competition, this era of a definition of success. Like what defines success, man, when I was a kid, it wasn't opening Legos on YouTube, right.

Kenny Lange [00:13:17]:
Yeah. What do you mean you're an influencer? That term wasn't even around. But people have YouTube channels. We're on YouTube right now, which is amazing. You couldn't do this before. So you can interview somebody and film it and record it and it's. Man, people are going to follow and listen and what a great thing. Because maybe somebody takes a nugget from this.

Kenny Lange [00:13:34]:
Yeah. I think it's certainly, to answer your question, I think is a definitive yes. I think that that adds to the tension in the workplace.

Kenny Lange [00:13:42]:
Yeah. And some of it, as you were answering, I think a connection I made is that the ability to. Which can sometimes create the pressure. Like, if you can, then you should. Which I think is a false way of thinking, or at least not a helpful way of thinking. That it's the complaints you hear from the older generations, or at least the ones I've heard is just, yes, I you want to contribute, and that is a good motivation. But the way you're going about it is, you know, childish and immature and annoying and all these things. And I think some of it comes from, if I'm not doing this big thing, then suddenly I don't have worth and I'm not doing what my peers and my generation are doing.

Kenny Lange [00:14:26]:
Like they. That. That identity, the how they're thinking. So I'd be curious, as you talk about the five different generations, can you go into just a little bit of, like, their dominant way of thinking, like you were describing, of understanding that? Because I think what you ended up describing is if we understand how they think, suddenly that gives us a route to have empathy for the other people we're working with.

Kenny Lange [00:14:50]:
Yeah, that's exactly right. And you named a couple of things about the way people think just in the language you used. The older generations are like, hey, slow down. I know you want to contribute. And then the younger generations are like, why aren't you listening to me? I can contribute. I gave a workshop on this very topic. And at the end, I was like, hey, what questions? And this young, young female raised her hand and said, how do I get senior executives to listen to me? Because I have experience and I have knowledge that will better the company. And you do with any good question, you ask it, you answer it with a question.

Kenny Lange [00:15:21]:
And I said, okay, tell me what kind of experience you have. I have semesters worth of experience in college. And I was like, okay, do you see, do you see a disconnect here of your view and their view of experience? Maybe. Let's start with acknowledging that there's a difference, which I'll go over some steps later, but let's acknowledge the difference. Step one, acknowledge that there's a difference. Another, another chief operating officer of a local, pretty, pretty large firm in town said, these new kids come in and they're not even done with their two weeks of orientation. And they are essentially asking me to sit down with them and go over their career path. And I'm like, how about you start, how about you finish your online training before we talk about your next promotion? And so there is certainly some tension there.

Kenny Lange [00:16:00]:
And to your point, again, let me, let me shape, Let me, let me shape it this way. What defines a generation? Okay? This isn't the end all, be all Evan Young's information, right? These are just things that I've pulled from the research. Also, you said something that I want to comment on of people say, I have an older soul, but you're a millennial. Okay, Again, everything I say here is there's an infinite scale of where somebody might fall. We're going to speak that average person in the middle, in the smack dab, kind of middle of each generation, kind of broad, broad brushstrokes, right? Depending on your culture, how you're raised, et cetera. So what shapes a generation? One is historical and cultural events, World War II a Great Recession, you know, the market crash in 2008. Pandemic. Gen Z doesn't know anything today that can't be replicated online.

Kenny Lange [00:16:46]:
I went to high school online, but a boomer has to have face to face. I'm not saying people can't change. You can't adapt to technology. So one is historical and cultural events. Two, which I've already touched on, is the prevalency of technology. When I say prevalency of technology, millennials, every toy had a computer in it, okay? When they're kids, Gen Z, they're born online. Born online. There's a study in Britain that showed that by the time a kid was five years old, there's over a thousand photos of them online.

Kenny Lange [00:17:15]:
That's insane. A thousand photos as a five year old. Okay, so when I say born online, I have, I have four Gen Z kids. They're right. My oldest, Gen Z is about to turn 21. My youngest is 12. Um, I'm a Gen Xer, by the way, barely, but I'm a Gen Xer. The other day some dude rolls up the driveway and he's can of food to my kid, sitting on the front porch with his buddy.

Kenny Lange [00:17:35]:
I was like, what's going on? Oh, dad, I ordered doordash. Just like what my, my 12 year old ordered doordash, right? And so there's the prevalency of technology. That's an example of it. Now we're 12, but okay, young kid, dude, kids are swiping phones. Think about you look over in church and some young kids online, you know, watching the show or something. That's great. That's not a comment on that. It's a comment on the prevalency of technology.

Kenny Lange [00:17:54]:
I was excited when I went to college, dude, that I got an address. I was like, oh, this place is fancy. I get my own email address real quick.

Kenny Lange [00:18:01]:
Can you. Do you draw a distinction between prevalency and accessibility?

Kenny Lange [00:18:05]:
In one sense, yes. But the accessibility of technology, that is going to be more sort of economic status potentially. So I'm going to separate that for now and I'll just say the prevalency, you know, because no matter where you fall out economically or your ability to purchase that technology, it's everywhere.

Kenny Lange [00:18:24]:
Okay, right.

Kenny Lange [00:18:25]:
So it's the prevalency of technology. And then third is how your parents raise you. Cultural and historical events, prevalency of technology, how your parents raise you. Now here's a key component to all of these during your adolescent years. And I would define an adolescent year from 9 or 10 years old, probably through high school. That's adolescent years. So it's, it's those events. I didn't go through World War II.

Kenny Lange [00:18:49]:
Right. I did go through the 2008 recession, but I wasn't an adolescent. And so at that point I'm learning to adapt. Right. Boomers use technology today better than some millennials or Gen Xers. But it wasn't available during their adolescent years. And that's what shapes the way you think.

Kenny Lange [00:19:06]:
Yeah, because a lot of the. When I think of memories, things that clear, or even think about the music that people listen to, or it is from those adolescent years, then it could sometimes venture into those early twenties, but man, that nine through seventeen.

Kenny Lange [00:19:26]:
How about this? How do you listen to music today?

Kenny Lange [00:19:28]:
On my phone.

Kenny Lange [00:19:29]:
Yeah. And how do you get it from.

Kenny Lange [00:19:31]:
The majesty of the airwaves?

Kenny Lange [00:19:34]:
That's right.

Kenny Lange [00:19:34]:
Satellites.

Kenny Lange [00:19:35]:
Just push a button. Right. Okay. How did you listen to music as a kid, even as a older millennial?

Kenny Lange [00:19:40]:
Cassette CD. And then eventually really simple, crappy MP3 player.

Kenny Lange [00:19:45]:
That's right. I think same thing with me, man. I was, I was 1980s, so I'm right on the edge of Gen X. And it was, I'd listen to the radio and hit play record at the same time for my cassette tape. And then it was, yeah, you had to listen all year or all day to get that one song. And then cassettes and then CDs and then all dude, remember when, you know, BNG music came out and or and you would pay the little thing and they'd mail you the CD in the mail and you'd rush to get it and either liked it or you didn't you return it. So that's what I mean. Prevalence of technology.

Kenny Lange [00:20:12]:
But Today as a 44 year old, I do the same thing you do, right? I'm like click, click, click. But that didn't shape the way I think.

Kenny Lange [00:20:18]:
And I've seen memes about this as you've been talking about, especially on the cultural events of the number of things that millennials and I would say even late Gen Xers such as yourself that we had, well one, I think 80s and 90s seemed to be heavily influential stuff. Started to. Feels like it accelerated a lot there as we started to shift from the technology age into like information and Internet age. But we had things like one, all the animal flus, we had nine, 11, we had the stock market crash. And it's like all these things, these major events that people around the world are like freaking out or like Gen Z is upset and we're like, it's just another mass, you know, hysteria thing.

Kenny Lange [00:21:12]:
So what you just described was very typical of a Gen X crowd. Now, again, you can be a young or an old millennial and fall into this category. There's. There's some wiggle room on either side. But what you just described is Gen X is a very cynical, forgotten generation, okay? And how many times have you heard this? All they do is care about whether they're safe, they're safety, psychologically safe. Let me explain that, right? Like, remember, each one of these things is an asset, and it's. I'm understanding why that person thinks that way. Cultural and cultural events, prevalency of technology, and then the way your parents raise you.

Kenny Lange [00:21:44]:
So let's let me start with the boomers. Had it. Had it good, right? They were booming not only in population, but the economy. 55% economic growth. After the wars, okay? Everybody had a TV, everybody could afford a car. Disney came out magic and pixie dust. Be whatever you want to be. Three major networks.

Kenny Lange [00:22:00]:
Everybody sat around the tv.

Kenny Lange [00:22:02]:
Yay.

Kenny Lange [00:22:03]:
Okay, you did. Not everybody got a trophy for the boomers because there were so many of them, only the best, okay? So now you create this environment where you had to climb to the top because everybody else was competing. All right? But then the boomers were the first ones to separate. Teenager, parent, riff. And that was the 60s, where self sacrifice from the traditionalists. We just made the world safe by winning two world wars. Traditionalists, boomers have everything at their fingertips. Economic power, political power, okay? Now the 60s come along, and it switched from self sacrifice to self indulgence.

Kenny Lange [00:22:39]:
And that's the first time there was a separation where the traditionalists were like, what are you doing? Plus, this idea of emerging adulthood, which is most boomers went to college, most traditionalists didn't. So they're like, why don't you go to go work? And they're like, because I'm making myself smarter. Okay? Emerging adulthood continues and gets wider and wider and wider to each generation. But now Gen X, okay, The boomers had prevalency and they were booming. And economic growth, Gen X, they were promised the American green, but didn't get it. Okay? The 80s, the 65 through 8080, is a gen X. Were promised the American dream but didn't get it. Divorce rates skyrocketed.

Kenny Lange [00:23:16]:
Latchkey kids, pandemic hiv. Everybody's on drugs, right? The musical of time was Rent, not Annie. Annie's. You know, you can rise to the top. And Rent is I'm struggling in lower Manhattan. And we can't get over this. All the AIDS and drugs, right? So everybody's divorced. It's this, suck it up, rub some dirt in it.

Kenny Lange [00:23:36]:
Finish this sentence, go outside and don't come home until the.

Kenny Lange [00:23:40]:
The sun sets.

Kenny Lange [00:23:41]:
That's right. Don't go home. Don't come home till the sun.

Kenny Lange [00:23:43]:
The lights come on.

Kenny Lange [00:23:44]:
There you go. That's what I'm looking for.

Kenny Lange [00:23:45]:
The street lights come.

Kenny Lange [00:23:45]:
That's right. Don't come home until the street lights come up. Nobody cared. Nobody cared. It was like, you'll figure it out. Okay, so that's Gen X. It's Donkey Kong, not Disney. Donkey Kong's like a barrel's coming at me.

Kenny Lange [00:23:56]:
Oh, and I gotta jump over this hole and swing on a vine. Disney's like pixie dust. So Gen X is this very cynical, realistic, get real, get better. Just, just get to the point. You've even said that already without even knowing it, right? It's just, oh, here we are. And who cares? Another horrible thing. That's Gen X. You're laughing because you know it's true.

Kenny Lange [00:24:18]:
You know it's okay. Now just hold on to that. Now you get into millennials, and that's touching on this prevalence of technology, the consumer age. How many different ways can you order coffee today, Kenny?

Kenny Lange [00:24:29]:
I probably don't have enough fingers and toes.

Kenny Lange [00:24:32]:
That's right. 429,000. Okay, how many when I grew up, I was like, yeah, I'll take a black coffee. No, not me. My parents. That's it. So that's this idea of a consumer age. So you're already starting to understand, though.

Kenny Lange [00:24:43]:
They're like, no, I want this now. I can download this. I want this. Okay, My kids are Gen Z, so they're raised by Gen X, right? Not, not every case. But that's my case now. If I was like told to go outside and play with a box. Gen Xers or young millennials and Gen Z, they're like, it's the parents fault that we became their personal activity directors because I was stepped on and smashed. Nobody cares.

Kenny Lange [00:25:06]:
Oh, you got bit by a dog today. Suck it up. Okay, so now you have all these Gen X parents not wanting to replicate that for their kids. And so they focused a lot more on how they felt. Oh, it's dangerous world out there. Kids are getting. Remember your adolescent years. Missing kids on milk cartons.

Kenny Lange [00:25:22]:
10 o'clock. Do you know where your kids are?

Kenny Lange [00:25:24]:
10 o'clock, it's 5 o'clock. Or how about, do you know where your kids are? Okay, just period. That's right. So I was raised missing kids on mail cartons don't come home till the streetlights come on. There's no way I'm doing that with my kids. It's like, let me arrange a playdate for you. Wait, do we know the parents? And those are all good things. I'm not talking about the evolution of safety, but this is member the way they think.

Kenny Lange [00:25:46]:
And so you get these young millennials where their focus was, do you feel safe? There's another topic here about psychological safety in the workplace, which is huge. We could learn that from Gen Z. But Gen Z, they're. They're the things that define their generation. Were the 8 economic crash. Now, remember, they were adolescents, so they didn't get it. Millennials are booming. Early 90s, economy's going up good.

Kenny Lange [00:26:07]:
Early 2000s, economy's great. Parents are buying things. House, house markets are good. 2008, you get in. Gen Z, house market crashes. Who's raising the Gen Z kids? The parents that went through the crash. So that affects the kids. That's what I mean by how your parents raise you.

Kenny Lange [00:26:21]:
And so this idea of, do I feel safe and do I believe in what I'm doing? Shut up, get to work. Boomers. Crawl your way to the top. You know, if the boss says, meet me on the golf course, you better be there, because that's the only way to get to the top. Not. Not Gen Z. They're like, do I believe in what I'm doing? Why can't you just give me a zoom call meeting? It's just the way they think.

Kenny Lange [00:26:43]:
Is the grass being ethically cut?

Kenny Lange [00:26:45]:
Exactly. Is it grass being ethically cut? And it's like, I don't want to say it's not their fault. I'm just saying this is the way that their mind thinks. Because of those three things I described earlier. Cultural events, pandemic. Right? Everybody's going to want to be safe. Regardless of your thoughts on it. The world shut down and it's okay.

Kenny Lange [00:27:02]:
Right?

Kenny Lange [00:27:03]:
Psychologically safe. I want to circle back to that. It's like the idea of, can I ask a question in the workforce? And if you're a business listening online, like, ask yourself this about your employees. Can they ask you a question without fear of getting their face shot off? Or make them admit a mistake?

Kenny Lange [00:27:21]:
Right. Or can you be questioned without feeling like it's an attack on your authority and leadership and instead interpret it as genuine curiosity? I'm not saying that every time it's genuine curiosity. Sometimes somebody's just being a Punk. The. The. I would go another couple hours if we're going to get onto psychological safety, just because that's. It's a topic I love and I use in my practice, one that the best definition that I've come across is. Dr.

Kenny Lange [00:27:53]:
Timothy Clark, who wrote the. The Four Stages of Psychological safety is. It's a culture of rewarded vulnerability.

Kenny Lange [00:28:00]:
Yeah, that's exactly right. I haven't read that book, but that's, that's. That's right.

Kenny Lange [00:28:05]:
I'll. I probably have an extra copy. I'll. I'll throw it to you. But it's a, It's a good read. But, you know, he goes through the four stages and what you're describing is, you know, in those middle to later stages is like inclusion safety. Just by virtue of being a human. You're.

Kenny Lange [00:28:19]:
You're not dismissed. Hey, you're. You have value because you're a human. There's some safety there. Can you learn? Is it safe for me to ask to learn? And sort of the social exchange is, okay, cool. If you're willing to put in the effort to learn and understand this, I'm willing to teach and train you and help you figure this out. Contributor safety. And I think this is.

Kenny Lange [00:28:43]:
And then finally Challenger safety, which I think are places where. What you've described is where like Gen Z are trying to jump into. Because so much of like school systems and early childhood stuff have tried to push hard on those first two of inclusion and learning. But they jump in where the leadership are traditionalists, Boomer, Gen X, cynical millennials like myself, potentially, that they're saying, oh, I want to contribute right away. Okay, but do you realize the weight of making a mistake? And they're used to like, oh, well, you just. You win or you learn. And I love that phrase because I think it's good and it's helpful. But sometimes there, it.

Kenny Lange [00:29:33]:
There's. There's a place to perform and there's a place to learn, and they're trying to contribute right out of the gate. We're like, I, I don't know. And then challenging the status quo, you're like, we put a lot of thought into this, but we can also be really prone to. This is the way we've always done it. Which is a phrase I abhor.

Kenny Lange [00:29:50]:
Yep, yep.

Kenny Lange [00:29:52]:
So walking through those, I don't mean to. To rant on those. It's just, it's a, it's one of my favorite topics. So how, how are you seeing that element play into the. This what I hear you advocating for, which is is bridging these gaps between the five different generations because it would almost seem to pit the. The older three against the younger two.

Kenny Lange [00:30:17]:
Yeah. And all of the examples you gave, man, I have like a story about. Right. And let me comment on one thing before I get to that answer. It's again, it's back to this prevalency of technology. Think today, the things a human being, adolescent, adult, whatever, can be exposed to because of the Internet. And I'm not talking inappropriate things, certainly that's always a risk. But I mean, this idea of diversity, Gen Z, they're more diversely aware than any other generation before them.

Kenny Lange [00:30:46]:
I'm not talking about being learned in that. Of course, a boomer Xer can learn that and be respectful of that. I just mean it culturally because online I can be exposed to something that I was never exposed to unless I traveled the world. And an example is I grew up in a tiny town of 1800 people. I hauled hay on farms, right. That's how I paid for college. And then I went to college. And then in college, I got a job in downtown Kansas City, Missouri as a bellman.

Kenny Lange [00:31:12]:
And I was around all kinds of different ethnicities. So I was exposed to culture by physically being there, not because I was looking at it online. Okay. So now, now kids are exposed to these cultural events in the Middle east, and they form these opinions about things, right or wrong, doesn't matter. They're now, they're sucked into something emotionally because they see it online and have access to it. So that shapes somebody. That's how the prevalency of technology kind of helps shape. So isn't that interesting? I hadn't, hadn't thought of it that way before, but it's like before I had to either read about it in the newspaper, hear about it, or experience it firsthand.

Kenny Lange [00:31:47]:
You had to put in effort, like. And now you can just accidentally bump into it.

Kenny Lange [00:31:52]:
Correct? Yeah, that's exactly. From.

Kenny Lange [00:31:55]:
From anywhere. Even if you went back to your town of 1800. I didn't. My town wasn't that small, but we were, I don't know, 15,000 maybe. And it was not a very culturally diverse place from an ethnicity standpoint, a belief standpoint, or even just cultural. Different cultural tradition standpoint.

Kenny Lange [00:32:16]:
Yep, yep. Back to your question of what are, what are some of the ways that people can bridge these gaps? Think of the workforce, right? Think of these areas. Hayden Shaw defines it as a sticking point. A sticking point in the workplace. Okay. And so a sticking point in the workplace would be defined as this. When people from different generations answer the same question differently and assume that their answer should be obvious to everybody else. Think about that.

Kenny Lange [00:32:40]:
When people from different generations answer the same questions differently and assume their answer should be obvious to everybody else. So think about that. Should I leave a message or should I just text message you? That's a simple softball. But when it comes to communication, feedback, respect, work ethic, knowledge transfer, how to run a meeting, you know, you said boomers are like, oh, that's the way we've always done it. They just want to drudge down the list. Okay. And they hate it when a millennial bounces all around. It doesn't stick to the agenda.

Kenny Lange [00:33:07]:
The Internet is not linear. And remember, millennials were raised on the Internet. I click on espn and then I click on fantasy football, and then I click on, oh, here's this headline. That's not linear thinking. But a boomer read a book. A book was linear. A boomer, they were taught, step at a time. That's linear thinking.

Kenny Lange [00:33:24]:
So there's an example that just the way you erase affects it. And so what can we do about it? That's the ultimate question is how, how do we, how do we handle this? I, I would say the first step is to acknowledge that there's a difference. Let's just pause to yourself.

Kenny Lange [00:33:39]:
Or, or you. Meaning acknowledge this as.

Kenny Lange [00:33:42]:
Yeah, if you need to start with yourself, sure. But publicly, here, here's a, here's a silly example. Younger generations want to work at a cubicle with their earbuds in. Older generations want to just shout over the divider and say, hey, did you get my email? Right, like, and then everybody's pissed at each other. Take your stupid earbuds out. These kids today, they just want to. They can't even focus. I never did that when I was their age.

Kenny Lange [00:34:07]:
Okay, let's acknowledge the difference. I notice you work with your earbuds in, and I notice that you just shout over the cubicle. Let's talk about it. It. Let's talk about it. Let's just acknowledge that there's a difference. Because if you don't talk about things, what happens? They just fester.

Kenny Lange [00:34:19]:
Resentment.

Kenny Lange [00:34:20]:
Exactly. Bitterness, Resentment. Okay. Then you got to focus on a common need.

Kenny Lange [00:34:24]:
Right?

Kenny Lange [00:34:25]:
And that's appreciating and understand where they come from. And so that's a little bit. I could do a six hour workshop with you on this, but that's understanding where they come from. Some of the things I was telling you about, consumer age, prevalency of technology, the way you were raised, cultural events, oh, okay. I actually appreciate that you were born online and you have all these things at your fingertips. That actually makes sense. Whereas I had to make my presence known in the workplace. Okay, now I can understand.

Kenny Lange [00:34:51]:
And then what's the common need here? The common need of that example is to communicate. Okay, so then the next step would be you have to flex. Hey, maybe during, you know, these hours that are our sales calls, you all can put head headphones in. But maybe during the team meeting, you take your headphones out, you got to flex both ways and up and down the chain, man. Young to old, old to young. Yeah, you gotta be flexible, like you said. What did you say? Get said. Just try it.

Kenny Lange [00:35:15]:
And you either learn or grow or something. That's what the young kids say.

Kenny Lange [00:35:17]:
I want win or you. Yeah, you win or you learn.

Kenny Lange [00:35:20]:
Yeah, you win or you learn.

Kenny Lange [00:35:21]:
Oh, I made a mistake. No big. No big whoop. It just cost the company a million dollars. Yeah, okay, well, I'll learn for the next time. And I'm like, no, you're fired. Yeah, that's right.

Kenny Lange [00:35:31]:
And so a younger generation has to flex to understand that those older generations know when to freak out. They know when to panic because they have, you know, decades worth of experience. Oh. So maybe I'll trust. Maybe I'll leverage that experience instead of just, you know, you win or you learn. We're not going to learn. We're going to win. Because I've seen this.

Kenny Lange [00:35:49]:
And then that. That kind of dovetails into the leverage piece. I have a million stories about leveraging. One of them is, remember I told you those 51 lieutenants, that. That worked for me, Dude, Their ability to communicate was unbelievable. I grew up where if you had information to put out, you gathered everybody, you got them under the awning, and you, like, made an announcement. People just stood there, and you're like, any questions? No, no, Nobody's going to ask questions. All right.

Kenny Lange [00:36:13]:
So that the way we're used to doing things. And in the Navy, we had these mandatory fun events. You know, hey, we're all going to go out and have fun together. And their ability to communicate, there'd be 50 of them spread out over these tables. And after our kind of event was over, they'd all be heads down on their phones. And then without saying a single word, 50 lieutenants, 50 people would get up, exit, and go to the next event with an additional 40 people there without saying a word. Because they could all just communicate on a group meet all these apps that they have, and it's, we're going to go here, meet you there in 15 minutes. You know, bring your dog, it'll be great, whatever.

Kenny Lange [00:36:48]:
Now you give that to a Gen Xer or a Boomer, dude, it would take them a clipboard, a megaphone, a president, a vice president, three committees and two sub meetings just to agree on the next event. A feedback loop. What are we doing here? So that's, that's what I mean of understanding where they come from and then leveraging their strength so the young lieutenants would come to us and be like, I don't, just don't understand why you don't loop us in on your decisions. And I'm like, dude, I'm the executive officer of this squadron. What do you mean ask you for how we're going to make million dollar, billion dollar decisions? Okay. Actually they were right. They might have had a better idea than this stuffy old curmudgeon in the front office just doing it the way he's always done it. And it's, let's at least get this as a data point and leverage your.

Kenny Lange [00:37:30]:
Strengths to that something. And it seems like it comes up more and more. Maybe it's because of the generational thing I heard a leader say, the way that they structured things to include people was everybody has a view, some people have a voice and a select few have a vote.

Kenny Lange [00:37:50]:
Yeah, that's, that's good.

Kenny Lange [00:37:52]:
So you kept everybody informed. So they have a view to the decision making process and what's happening. We're not going to, you know, we don't want to surprise anybody. I think surprises are great for birthday parties, but maybe not for leading an organization. Unless you're getting a raise and then a voice is, we want to hear from you. We want to like, what are you seeing like your lieutenants or do you have a different data point that if I had it, it doesn't mean I'm doing what you say. It just means I need to consider that in the matrix of what I'm deciding. And then a few people who understand the weight, the implications of the decision, those are the people, the people with experience like you were talking about.

Kenny Lange [00:38:36]:
We've seen this, we know we need to make this kind of decision. Not this one because we don't need to freak out yet. Or we do actually this is more severe than you understand. And I'm going to make this and it's going to seem this way, but I'll, you'll see why as we go along. If I think you gave several great examples and I could keep talking about this for a while because something internally I've dealt with and a lot of, of organizations I feel like I'm, maybe I'm swinging to the other side. But if somebody wanted to get started, and I think you mentioned it with the communication piece is just a great way to do it. But maybe reframing this as if you are younger. So maybe you can give two approaches if you are younger, trying to communicate up and then or influence and connect, let's say connect up and if you're older and you're trying to connect downwards, what's something each of those groups can in the next 24 hours that would cost them little to no money?

Kenny Lange [00:39:36]:
That's a great question and I would sum it up, sum it up in one statement for both of them. It's view a generational difference as a potential asset. Period. Think about that. View a generational difference as a potential asset. And I say potential because that's up for up to that person to decide. Doesn't matter if you're the CEO, you know, or the, I don't know, mail clerk. I don't know that those exist anymore.

Kenny Lange [00:39:59]:
Top or bottom of the company. Doesn't matter. Gen X, dude. But view generational differences as a potential asset. Yeah. You're going to ask yourself who instead of what, who can help me understand this? Instead of what do I need to do to solve the problem? Who can solve it for me?

Kenny Lange [00:40:14]:
I love that. And I'm sure you're aware of the book who, not how by Dan Sullivan. So if somebody's looking, okay, that sounds great, Evan, but you know, what's a, you know, how could I learn about that and that that might be more for the, for the older generation. 2. It's a book. You can get it, it's in paper. I'm sure they have it chiseled in stone somewhere. But if, if you're looking for a great template process to understand who, who not how by dan Sullivan and Dr.

Kenny Lange [00:40:43]:
Benjamin Hardy, it is a great and very easy read. That's one of the most practical books I've, I've come across. So I love that it's not a bunch of theory. So Evan, if, if people want to know more about you, maybe maybe even want to reach out and say hey, like my business could use that, that six hour workshop or, or to learn more about this. I want to bring more people into this way of thinking. How do people get a hold of you and ask questions and find out more?

Kenny Lange [00:41:08]:
Yeah, great question, Evan. Express prostraining.com is my email and then expresspros training.com is this our website. You can get to me on the LinkedIn page as well. But we specialize in tailored training for organizations and we just want to partner with organizations to walk out systemic health purpose and results. Some of the ways we do that are by developing leaders, training managers, and organizational consulting. A lot of my research for this topic came from Hayden Shaw's book Sticking Points. And that's a, that's a resource you can check out for this specific topic.

Kenny Lange [00:41:39]:
Be sure to link that up as well as, as well as just Express Pros Training. Kevin actually, if, if anybody goes back to, I want to say it was September, October of last year. Kevin Johnson, who's one of the co founders of Express Pros Training, was on the show and it was a great, great episode. It was a popular episode. So go back and take a listen to that as well. But Evan, thank you so much. I hope this is not the last time that you join us on the show because I think you got a lot of wisdom and insights and you're just fun to talk to. So I'm getting some out of it.

Kenny Lange [00:42:13]:
But if you are a, if you're a listener out there in podcast land, YouTube land village, I don't know that that unraveled rather nation, but YouTube nation. There you go. I would deeply appreciate a subscription, a review, anything that can help us get into more ears and eyes of leaders. You don't know who is battling what and you doing a simple action like that to give the show some feedback, tech may actually put it in the path of somebody and the conversation unlocks something for them that transforms their life and leadership. And that's just a great way to pay it forward and make a contribution to the planet. Until next time, change the way you think you'll change the way you lead. We'll see you.