How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Evan Gunter [00:00:00]:
Which is funny because it's so valuable now. Like, if someone said, hey, you actually have to pay to come to this meeting, I'd be like, great, I'll pay for it because it's that valuable to me.

Kenny Lange [00:00:14]:
Welcome to the how leaders think podcast. I'm your host, Kenny Lang, and we are the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. With me today is Evan Gunter. He is the founder of Giveflow. It is a SaaS product, and it doesn't mean sase, although he may be. He has been building companies and products for as long as he can remember. He's built over 20 failed companies. So he's got experience, and he's learned the most from those than any of his successful ones.

Kenny Lange [00:00:46]:
Like any great entrepreneur, now he's focused on give flow, where they help churches harness their data into growing their giving ministry, which is deeply needed. He likes to describe himself as a solo founder, failing entrepreneur, christian husband, and dad. Welcome to the show, Evan.

Evan Gunter [00:01:04]:
Thanks for having me, man. That was quite the intro.

Kenny Lange [00:01:07]:
That was we soul. We could probably get you a clip of just that, and you could use that in some.

Evan Gunter [00:01:14]:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Kenny Lange [00:01:16]:
Free of charge, man. Well, I'm excited that you're. We've. We've had a relationship going back to my days of running an agency and just messaging and emailing and everything. So I'm excited that we get to do something a little more collaborative to the world. They don't know about all the behind the scenes stuff. So tell me, Evan, what is on your.

Evan Gunter [00:01:43]:
Man? So, I did something that I don't recommend, but that I know that works for me. And what I did was I booked a call with a customer about a feature that I didn't have yet that I know that they needed. And I knew that was warranted, so I booked the call, pretty much time boxing myself to get it done. And that call is at the end of this call. So I have been scrambling to get this stuff done. And sometimes you just know yourself, you know what I mean? I just got to put it out there, kick myself, make sure I'm doing it. So that's what's been on my mind for the last 24 to 48 hours, is getting stuff done.

Kenny Lange [00:02:33]:
Awesome. I have done the same think to myself. I have to trick myself and create artificial. I mean, this is a real deadline, but you almost had to set a tripwire in order to get it done. So is that something you've done before? Is this a first time occurrence?

Evan Gunter [00:02:56]:
It's definitely not a first time occurrence, if I was to be totally honest, I would definitely tell you I'm a huge procrastinator, which is an interesting.

Kenny Lange [00:03:09]:
I.

Evan Gunter [00:03:09]:
Guess, combination with someone who's also an entrepreneur, because doing stuff is really important to that. But the thing that I love about procrastination that people don't talk about enough is that while you're procrastinating, yes, you're not really doing stuff, but you're thinking about how you're going to do it, right. You're thinking about how you're going to be implementing it for that entire time span that you're actually procrastinating. And then when you get down to do it, you already kind of have it mapped out how you want to get it done. At least that's the way I kind of find myself doing work sometimes. So I don't know, does that make sense?

Kenny Lange [00:03:47]:
It makes a lot of sense, and it bears witness with my soul because I will do the same thing. I got these little bubbles that pop up, so I bet my editor doesn't want to cut those out. But the idea of putting something off, it's almost like strategic negligence to procrastinate. I will do that because there's a part of me that loves having the pressure of having to get it done. And I did it at this high quality in less time than most people. I don't know who it is in the world I'm competing with, but they're out there and I'm winning. Or at least that's what I tell myself. But what's funny is I was listening to a podcast.

Kenny Lange [00:04:42]:
It's a new one to me, but very popular, the Huberman lab, and he's a neuroscientist, and he had Adam grant on, and they were talking about Adam's recent book, which I think is called potential, or it's about potential, and they talk about procrastination, and there's procrastination, and then there was some other unique quality that Adam went into that was probably mind blowing. But within the thinking, it. It. Does it help you to sort of compose in your head? Like, I'll compare it to, say, the stories we hear about Mozart, like Mozart would sort of compose all in his head and then write it all mean, does that help you as opposed to some people, they need to write obsessively to get all the thoughts, to notate and everything. Is that something that's worked for you, or has this always been the case to where you need to kind of compose in your head.

Evan Gunter [00:05:47]:
So I'll say I feel like I used to be a really big planner where if I knew I had to get something done in the next 30 days, like, great, let's start now. Let's start putting together some stuff now. That's probably the safer way to go about it. But as you get more busy, I don't know, you just start to put stuff off and you start to prioritize things in your head. And even though I know this is, like, a top priority, I also have other things going on that I'm trying to knock out, too. And I know this needs to get done. So, great. I'm going to put a hard date.

Evan Gunter [00:06:33]:
I'm not going to say it helped me, but it definitely made me realize what I was doing is there's an actual theory or a law that says time will expand to the date that you see.

Kenny Lange [00:06:47]:
Yeah, parkinson's law. There you go. Work will expand to fill the time allotted. So if you give, it'll take 30, but if you give it 2 hours, it'll somehow take you 2 hours to do the same thing.

Evan Gunter [00:06:59]:
Exactly. And I feel like there's so many things that I do that a lot of times could be done in 30 minutes or an hour. But sometimes I'll set, like, these later dates, and it'll just take forever, and I'll just drag out, especially in what I do, because I do what I would consider a lot of deep work sometimes where it takes time to get ramped into the thing that you're doing, and then once you get pulled out, you can't just jump right back in. Yeah, I don't know, man. You just been doing it long enough, you kind of figure out what works for you and what doesn't work for you. That's been working for me. I guess I'll keep doing it. Sometimes you just kind of need a kick in the butt.

Evan Gunter [00:07:42]:
So we did it.

Kenny Lange [00:07:43]:
Yeah, I need several kicks. Something to that end that. I've been following this guy, Alex Hermosi, and he talks about productivity, business, marketing, all these different things.

Evan Gunter [00:07:56]:
He's the marketer.

Kenny Lange [00:07:57]:
Yeah, I bought one of these timers.

Evan Gunter [00:08:02]:
Okay.

Kenny Lange [00:08:02]:
And I threw the box away. Otherwise, I'll find the link, and I'll put it in the show notes. I don't know, like, $1012, but you can just, like, I can hit the mic, but I can just rotate it and then hit. And then it starts counting down. But he talked about how he would procrastinate or he would do certain things, and he's like, I don't think it should take this long. He's like, I'm going to set a time limit. And he would set the timer and say, all right, I can't do anything else other than this one thing, which I think speaks back to the term you just used, which is deep work. And I'm curious if you've come across Cal Newport's work, which is called deep work.

Evan Gunter [00:08:47]:
I have not.

Kenny Lange [00:08:48]:
Yeah. And there's all these studies around. I definitely would recommend it. It's a phenomenal read. But he talks about how in order to exactly what you said of, I've got to ramp into a way of thinking, like, connect these dots, these dots, these dots. And it forms the basis of the work I'm going to be doing that allows you to keep moving through it. Whereas when we have these frequent interruptions, our brain can't fully get into a state of flow in order to do some really cool things. So we're always staying at the shallow end of the pool, so to speak.

Evan Gunter [00:09:21]:
Yeah, I would say, because I'm a solo founder, I have a lot of interrupts during my day. Right. I'm sure you do, too. So being able to time children, support emails, phone calls. Yeah, it's a bunch of stuff.

Kenny Lange [00:09:44]:
As you've been doing this for a while in your bio, you've had 20 failed companies experiments, right, that have led to you learning a lot. And obviously, you're someone who reads. You're looking at what are other smart people doing to keep building into your successes. But what sort of experiments were you running or things were you doing before you figured out, hey, I really need to be able to find a way to get into the deep work in order to make things that succeed. Right? Like, what were some of those lessons from those failures that taught you? Like, maybe this method, I had the right idea, but the wrong method and approach for it.

Evan Gunter [00:10:30]:
Yeah, man, there's quite a few. I feel like I could write a book or do something on all the learnings of these failures. I will say one of my biggest regrets. And not that I'm super old, but I'm also not super young anymore either. I'm in my early 30s. But if I had to rewind and go back into my early twenty s, I wish I would have found a mentor that could have saved me tons and tons of time because I feel like I made a lot of all of the classic mistakes that early founders make. Like, oh, we're going to disrupt this entire market and we're going to be the first to market and this product is going to be awesome. And I did a lot of that, man.

Evan Gunter [00:11:21]:
And it took me a while, way too long in hindsight, to realize, hey, Evan, you don't want to be first to market. Then you got to educate your customers. And then once you educate them, then you got to let them know that, hey, this is a problem. And then you got to sell them the solution to the problem. And it's just a bunch of stuff. I feel like if I would have had somebody early on, I feel the same way with my golf game.

Kenny Lange [00:11:43]:
Right.

Evan Gunter [00:11:44]:
I wish I would have taken lessons at the beginning. It would have saved me a ton of time down the road.

Kenny Lange [00:11:49]:
So I just watched Happy Gilmore and say, well, this is enough lessons for me.

Evan Gunter [00:11:55]:
Well, yeah, I probably did watch Happy Gilmore, and that's what caused all the.

Kenny Lange [00:12:00]:
Right.

Evan Gunter [00:12:00]:
So I was like, oh, yeah, this is how you get power. You get a running start.

Kenny Lange [00:12:06]:
Yeah, exactly. I tried that once on a golf course. I'm not a golfer at all. I get too bored.

Evan Gunter [00:12:15]:
Everyone tries it once.

Kenny Lange [00:12:16]:
Moving. Yeah, you got to try it. I'm more of a putt putt guy, so I need distractions like a windmill or a clown with whatever. But it's interesting that you mentioned that one of my coaches and mentors that he's recent, he's a co founder of System and Soul, which is the framework I use. But something I've heard him say for a while is the three things that all the successful people that he's coached and come across in his decade and a half of just being a coach and he's a multi time entrepreneur, was they had a coach or a mentor, a peer group and some sort of framework or model that guided their decision making and growth and things like that. They weren't just sort of like making it up as they go, which all of us entrepreneurs are given to. Right? We want to build the ship while we're sailing it because who has time to wait?

Evan Gunter [00:13:16]:
Yeah, man, it's so funny. Again, back in my early twenty s, I didn't want advice from anyone. I wanted to do it myself. I was very prideful. And now I'm just like the total opposite. Give me everything. Tell me what have you learned? Tell me more. Tell me more.

Kenny Lange [00:13:41]:
In thinking about your own thinking, right? So sort of the pay attention to what you pay attention to in your twenty s, and I'm sure you've come across other, you maybe were around other entrepreneurial type people at that age as well and probably still come across them today. What is the thinking behind you know what? I'll figure it out. Or I know better. Or what is that unproductive prevailing wisdom that you think keeps so many of us blinded to the value of a mentor and deep work and things like that?

Evan Gunter [00:14:22]:
Yeah, I don't know, man. For me, and I'm definitely still this way, but I had a lot of pride back then. I really wanted to accomplish things myself more so that when I reached the finish line, I could say I did it with no help. Got you. Which just seems like super childish in hindsight, looking back. Why would you ever think that way? But I did. I didn't want help from anyone.

Kenny Lange [00:14:52]:
What do you think drove that?

Evan Gunter [00:14:56]:
I don't know, man. We could be getting into some deep conversations about my free therapy. I don't know. It could absolutely be free therapy. Yeah, man. I don't know. I really don't. Because I come from a great, loving family.

Evan Gunter [00:15:18]:
Love my parents, love my sister. There's nothing there that drove that. I think maybe super quick side note, kind of. Kind of related. My dad grew up. He grew up super poor in the projects and got out. Grew up with seven brothers and sisters, lived on food stamps. I don't know.

Evan Gunter [00:15:46]:
Maybe there's something there. Hearing the stories that he told me growing up, wanting to be a fighter. Yeah. I don't know, man. I don't know. That's just the way I am. I mean, I still have a lot of that today, but it's totally different if I run across somebody that has experience. And even if they don't have experience, I want to listen to you.

Evan Gunter [00:16:07]:
I want to hear what you have to say.

Kenny Lange [00:16:09]:
Right.

Evan Gunter [00:16:10]:
Because just because I'm listening doesn't mean I have to follow what you're saying.

Kenny Lange [00:16:15]:
Right. That could be its own podcast.

Evan Gunter [00:16:17]:
It could.

Kenny Lange [00:16:18]:
I don't have to follow it just because you gave me advice. I'm always curious about that because I've done a lot of reflection myself because I was very similar. And you and I have talked outside of this a little bit about that mentality and some personality types, and we can go into the enneagram and all of those things, but, yeah, I think I had a chip on my shoulder because of just growing up, dealing with being bullied and some of those things, it was sort of like, I'll show you. And instead of it just like, dealing with the issues of a poor relationship with one person, it was, I'm now taking on the world, which that mentality can still jump all over me. I try to use it for good now and maybe fight against real evils in the world, not imaginary bullies. But it really did come from, I'm smart, I'm grateful for the brain God gave me, but I would overcompensate by being over intellectual and trying to dominate and figure things out. And like, you know what? I would rather just figure it out on my own, because for whatever reason, I imagined all these other people who tried to give me wisdom, my parents included, you just don't really know. You're just not quite as bright.

Kenny Lange [00:17:47]:
I'll navigate this much differently, and life has a beautiful way of showing you how dumb you are and where those deficiencies lie. It won't force you to grow up, but it definitely gives you the opportunity. I think I would say, well, fast forwarding. As you went through that and had your different interactions, was there a catalyzing moment where your thinking started to shift and you started to say, you know what? I've been doing it this way, and I'm not quite getting the results I'm wanting? They may not have been bad results, but maybe weren't meeting your expectations. And you said, I need to change the way I'm thinking here. Was there a particular moment or set of circumstances that led you to try something different, to maybe more aligned with where you are today?

Evan Gunter [00:18:52]:
I don't know if there was something in particular. It was probably a combination of a lot of those failures, but I think just kind of being very blunt about it, it was, hey, solve a problem people actually want solved. I feel like a lot of my early stuff, a lot of these things that I was putting out was cool. They were cool things, and they worked, but a lot of times, people didn't need them solved. Like, the problem that I was solving wasn't something people were interested in, and if they were interested in it, they weren't willing to pay me for it. Right.

Kenny Lange [00:19:34]:
Key component in a business.

Evan Gunter [00:19:36]:
It is. It is a key component. If you're an entrepreneur, you have to get paid at some point. So I think when I got my first quote unquote hit or something that actually paid me, I kind of was able to see what that actually looks like, and you just kind of combine everything that you've learned before that, and it just kind of snowballs and you just kind of can figure it out a little bit better. So maybe not one particular instance, definitely a combination of things, but I definitely remember when someone handed me my first dollar, like, hey, I built this, and someone gave me that first dollar. I was like, oh, man, this is great. This is fantastic.

Kenny Lange [00:20:21]:
Yeah, it's like a drug when you realize that you can do that and it doesn't have to come in the form of being a w two employee. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but for those of us that feel that itch to make something, explore something. I was literally this morning was on a call with a new contact. I got an introduction, and this person works on social media for nonprofits, and she was asking me about my background with my agency. And I was telling her my whole story, and I told her, it's like I got let go from this one agency after three months. They were more of a traditional agency. I wanted to be more like digital marketing future. And this is back in 2015.

Kenny Lange [00:21:09]:
And I remember this one person calling. It was a law office called wanted a website. And the standard price that I was told to quote is they start at $5,000 and go up, which I thought was insane for a website. I know better now, but I thought it was insane. And not long after that, unfortunately, I was let go and I started thinking about my options. Like, you know what? I'm nerdy enough. I can build a website. I called that office back and said, hey, now I spun it.

Kenny Lange [00:21:42]:
You can call me a liar, but I did spun it. And I said, I've decided to go out on my own, and I think I can cut out a lot of the overhead costs and pass those savings on to you. What do you think about a website for 1250? And they said, let us talk about it. Got back to me like a day later and said, yeah, let's do it. And I was like, what? Someone's going to pay me to do this? And from then on, I was hooked. And then fast forward five years later, I'm selling that agency and so forth. But I definitely resonate with when you figure out people need a thing, you can do a thing and you can make a living, charge money first, and then figure out how to make a living at it. It really is quite addictive.

Kenny Lange [00:22:32]:
So it's one thing to get started, right? I forget how many businesses, it's probably a million something businesses are started every year. Most of those shut their doors in the first twelve to 18 months and probably 80% to 90% never see year five, right? Yeah. So it's one thing to start that definitely takes courage, but I think it takes maybe more wisdom and humility to keep going. What has helped you? Because you've been on a path, and I just forgot the name of the migration product that first introduced you to me. But you started there, you've moved on to give flow. But what have you seen be key to keeping something going, right. Not just have a bright idea and sell a little bit of something, but now you're making a living at this.

Evan Gunter [00:23:27]:
Yeah. I think the biggest thing for me was talking to your customer base as much as possible, because when I talked to them, even just like chatting them up in a setting like this, you learn about their problems, you learn what's taking time out of their day, you learn about their frustrations. If they're using your current product, you learn how to make your product better. Really? I think that's probably a big key, especially early on. Even with Giflow, it's coming up on two years old and I would still consider it like a pretty new product where I'm still talking to customers, trying to figure out what's working for them, what's not working for them to try to make the product better. Definitely just talking to people, I think is a big key. Not that I'm successful by any means, but if there was some sort of gauge and we were to say, hey, how do you get here? You can't do it without talking to your customers.

Kenny Lange [00:24:35]:
Yeah, I think it may have been David Cancel, who founded Drift, which is live chat CRM. They've gone. Yeah, it may have been him. And if I'm misattributing, I'm sorry to whoever really said this, but it was whoever gets closest to the customer wins.

Evan Gunter [00:24:57]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:24:59]:
It wasn't necessarily the best marketer, the best salesperson, the person with the most vc funding or the longest Runway, but it was whoever gets closest to the customer is going to win in the marketplace. Both. Just win against your own standards of excellence or goals. But also when there are other competing products. Right. Because we're in a capitalistic market. Right. So competition built is part of it.

Kenny Lange [00:25:28]:
Has there been anything other than talking to customers? You mentioned early on wishing you had mentors? Is that something you've gone back and you've tried to find other people, even if it's not a formal relationship? I try to find people who maybe are a few steps ahead and ask them questions. Or at least you have the, hey, if you ever need anything, you can call me sort of relationship.

Evan Gunter [00:25:49]:
Yeah, I have a mentor now, someone that I meet with, but maybe not as regularly as I would like, but at least I hope they're listening. Every, I would say at least once a quarter on the slow rate, maybe once every couple of months. But then I also have what I would refer to as a mastermind of a group of folks that other solo entrepreneurs, actually, some of them have grown. They have a few employees now, but very similar company size in the SaaS space that we get on a phone call every other week and just get on and kind of chat about what we're dealing with, what we're working through, really just kind of as this founder roundtable to kind of bounce stuff off each other, which is really nice, something that I probably wouldn't have been open to a long time ago, which is funny because it's so valuable now. Like, if someone said, hey, you actually have to pay to come to this meeting, I'd be like, great, I'll pay for it because it's that valuable to me.

Kenny Lange [00:27:00]:
Yeah, that's fantastic. I've recently, in the last year, started participating in some groups. Some maybe feel a little bit more networking. Others are for, like, Christ centered executives and things like that, where, hey, can we commiserate a little bit, but also go in and there's a mix. Like, I might have some wisdom or knowledge or experience on something that helps somebody else, and the next week or next call or meeting that they have something for me, which is something I was really against. Right. I was against needing anybody again. There's a whole series that we could do on that, and I should probably invite my therapist on to articulate it better than me.

Kenny Lange [00:27:53]:
So what's sort of on your mind as you're looking ahead for the future of giveflow and just your evolution as a founder, as an entrepreneur, what sort of ways of thinking are you looking to evolve or iterate on that can sort of take you, like, what got you here won't get you there. Is there anything that you're looking ahead? You're like, hey, I think if I want to get to this place, these are some things that I might need to tweak or iterate on.

Evan Gunter [00:28:30]:
Yeah. In the context of the business and as it grows, to be honest, I'm trying to figure out how much growth I want.

Kenny Lange [00:28:43]:
Right.

Evan Gunter [00:28:44]:
Because being a solo founder has a lot of perks. It's got a lot of downside, too. Sure. I like interacting with people. I like jumping on this conversation with you. Like, this is nice, talking to people, but at the same time.

Kenny Lange [00:29:00]:
Section.

Evan Gunter [00:29:03]:
But at the same time, and I think I may have told this to you before, is when you start adding people and you just get bigger. Just like, other stuff comes into play that I'm not a huge fan of. Like, these politics and just a variety of different stuff. And I'm not saying I would ever be there in the next year or so, but you have to kind of start thinking about, hey, I like using this analogy. I think in a perfect world, I would come to work with my band. Like, there would be a lead singer and a drummer and a lead guitarist and maybe a bassist and there soul be like four of us, and we would just come in and everyone would kind of know what their role is, know what they're doing. It feels like a really good team size. Now when I think about that and I say, hey, this is where I want to be.

Evan Gunter [00:29:55]:
Okay, well, now I have to think about hiring people or bringing other folks on board, which is a whole new thing. I'm a very good generalist, which makes me a really good entrepreneur. Hey, I do a lot of things, okay, not super great, but now, okay, if I'm going to grow and I'm going to hire somebody, who do I hire for? Do I hire a lead guitarist? Like somebody that is also a little bit of a generalist that can do a few different things? Maybe you can play drums if I need them to. Maybe you can sing. They're not a great singer, but they can if you need them to.

Kenny Lange [00:30:30]:
Backup vocals?

Evan Gunter [00:30:31]:
Yeah, backup vocals. Or do I say, hey, no. A lot of my time right now is being spent on support tickets, and it's very easy to hire for somebody that can just handle support. I'm definitely trying to think around some of that stuff.

Kenny Lange [00:30:47]:
I know somebody who could help you figure that out.

Evan Gunter [00:30:51]:
Oh, yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:30:54]:
We can talk offline about that, though. That's always a major consideration once you start to reach certain stages and you figure out what's my highest and best use of time as an owner, founder, CEO, like whatever title you want to use. And is it actually cheaper to pay somebody than to use my own time there? But those inflection points always come with a lot of consideration, right?

Evan Gunter [00:31:27]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:31:28]:
So, as someone is thinking of this, and maybe they're a little entrepreneurial, maybe they're an entrepreneur and they're inside of an organization, but they're trying to make this progress that you've described of, like, I'm going out, I'm seeking wisdom, trying to grow. Listen, if somebody wanted to evolve their thinking similar to what you have, what's maybe a baby step in the next 24 hours that they could take that would get them on that path?

Evan Gunter [00:32:05]:
Yeah. I don't know if this is a great answer, but I'm going to say just doing something, whether that's right or wrong, just do something. Just put your foot down and do something. It might be terrible, but I promise you're going to learn a lot and you're going to kind of develop that thinking along the way. I can't tell you how many times, even in giflow or some of my other products where I've just done something like, hey, I talked to a few people, I think this is a good idea. And then you do something, you're like, hey, we like the idea, but actually the way you've implemented is terrible. But then that generates feedback. But I just did something, I put something out.

Evan Gunter [00:32:52]:
I didn't think about it a ton, which is almost maybe the polar opposite of this podcast is don't think, just do it. Just do it and then you'll figure it out. Yes.

Kenny Lange [00:33:05]:
Spoken like a true entrepreneur. Just do a thing. If he fails, so what? Yeah, no, I'm a huge fan of that. What I hear you saying is whatever that thing is that maybe they've been thinking about or trying or experimenting with is stop overthinking it and just do something to get it going and let the feedback and the experience be that teacher as opposed to trying to work out all the details before you take your first step on it.

Evan Gunter [00:33:40]:
Yeah, man. Because a lot of times I can spend a bunch of time thinking around something. Again, hear me say this isn't like, hey, always just do something instead of thinking. No, that's not always. A lot of times you do need to think around a decision or think around the way you're going to implement something. But maybe in a little bit of an entrepreneurial context, I would say just doing something is so much more valuable than spending a bunch of hours thinking about how you're going to do it. Right.

Kenny Lange [00:34:12]:
And it doesn't have to be a big thing. I don't think I hear you saying that. Go do some big thing. Like it could just be in your context, it could be, let's test a feature. We could write that up, put it in there, see what people think, beta test it, whatever it may be. And it may even just be try something out to a small sample of folks. Right?

Evan Gunter [00:34:32]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:34:33]:
Non fatal failure is a way to go or move fast and break things. If you want to quote Zuck, I think that was him that said.

Evan Gunter [00:34:44]:
Fail fast, fail hard. I don't know. They say that too. If I am building a feature or if I'm implementing something, I'm definitely not doing any of that without talking to my customers first. Again, the last thing I want to do is build something no one needs. Right? Or no one wants. Which, again, if I go back to those 20 failed companies, I did a lot of that. So I'm always talking to somebody.

Evan Gunter [00:35:13]:
But once I figure out, like, hey, this is a real problem. Okay, great. Let's go ahead and put something out and see if it works or if it saves someone some time and then we can kind of tweak it along the way. I think you talked about. You mentioned one of my earlier products that we got acquainted to each other with was a migration tool. And, man, the first version of that thing was so bad. It was so bad, but it saved people time. They were willing to jump through the hoops because it was less hoops than what they were jumping through before.

Kenny Lange [00:35:56]:
One was greater than zero.

Evan Gunter [00:35:58]:
Yeah, and it was terrible. But I put something out there, got feedback, talked to people, and then just kind of reiterated stuff. So, yeah, man, just do something.

Kenny Lange [00:36:11]:
Jump out and do it. Well, Evan, thank you so much for joining me, and I hope to have you on again in the future. To all the listeners, if you got value from this or any of the other episodes, I certainly appreciate a subscribe, like share all those things. We want to help as many leaders and thinkers as we possibly can. But until next time, remember, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead.