How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Dawson Barksdale [00:00:00]:
If I could clearly show you the top of the mountain, that's great. But what are the next few steps? I see that as one of the hiccups of founders taking on VC money. Those next steps are pivotal if the VC is not clear on how to get you there, or worst case scenario, they take advantage of you to get you out and take your technology and move forward without you.

Kenny Lange [00:00:26]:
Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast, a show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Dawson Barksdale. He is the chief encouragement Officer and founder of Local. And if you're watching online, you can see it's a. It's local, it's a business, it's a local T shirt. Maybe it was locally made and sourced. It's straight, it's like farm to T shirt, sort of organic cotton. He is a serial entrepreneur, passionate servant, driven, visionary, but ultimately just a small town kid who isn't afraid to try new things.

Kenny Lange [00:01:03]:
He's a believer who always is trying, not always successfully though, to represent Jesus and obey his calling. Welcome to the show, Dawson.

Dawson Barksdale [00:01:13]:
Glad to be here. Thanks for having me, man.

Kenny Lange [00:01:16]:
Yeah, of course. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. You're a sharp dude. You've been doing big things. Obviously we got connected through our mutual affection for the fostering collective and that mission. But. But your. Your roots are firmly planted in entrepreneurship as I just read.

Kenny Lange [00:01:33]:
So I'm really curious what is on your mind?

Dawson Barksdale [00:01:36]:
Yeah, so trying to, obviously before we started this conversation, just trying to figure out what do I even bring to the table. The thing that you can't see my whiteboard up here, but the thing that's been on my mind over the last 24 to 48 hours and it's going to sound scripted, but it's not, is what does it take to start a venture capital firm? The reason is the reason this has come up really hot. Right now I'm in class at SMU to get my executive mba, which has been awesome little plug for that program. It is very expensive and it is worth every penny so far. So far worth every penny. There's still a semester to botch it, I'm sure, but one of the classes is a private equity and venture capital strategy class and they brought in a guy who started a venture capital firm. Gosh, I want to say it's like 15 years ago and when he was 31 years old with no experience, raised $5 million, which sounds like a lot of Money, but it goes really fast in that world and. But just found like his niche in the industry of certain types of companies.

Dawson Barksdale [00:02:43]:
I was like, man, if that dude can do it, maybe I'm dumb enough to believe that I think I can do it too. And so genuinely in the last 24 hours I've text my friend. Oh, I'm like, this is going to be public information. Geez, we might need to cut that one out. And four other people that I won't say any more names the. That, hey, have you ever thought about this? And a few of them have been like, absolutely, I have that. Why do you ask? Mike, hold up, hold that thought for a minute. I'm not sure how deep down this rabbit hole I want to go, but it's something that's, it's certainly a top of mind thing over the last 24 to, well, 72 hours or so since class ended last week.

Dawson Barksdale [00:03:27]:
And so anyhow, since you asked, that's what's on my mind. That's one of the things on my.

Kenny Lange [00:03:31]:
Mind that is really intriguing. There's a lot of opinions on, on the value of vc, obviously right now. And this is probably top of mind because I was listening to an artificial intelligence podcast that comes out every week. VC is just hot for AI companies. Yeah, it was hot for other SaaS platforms. There's all these different themes, there's niches, as you have mentioned. How do you think people are processing or thinking about venture capital today? Like, is it different than it used to be? Does it represent something different? Does the prevailing wisdom still make sense?

Dawson Barksdale [00:04:12]:
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think that because I've been on the other side of being a fund, like raising funds for startups, and I think that just like anything, I think that venture capital, specifically private equity, probably be included in this. And I think those are two of the same things, just at different levels. I think VC is just an earlier stage private equity firm, but I think the reason that they've probably got a negative connotation in the startup world in particular or just in business in general is because it needs to be more than just funding a company. It needs to be more than just a high, basically an equity loan. And I think that's the part that I started to realize of going like, I think my opinion of it was not a real high opinion. I wouldn't say it was a negative opinion, but it was like, if I don't need VC money, I don't want to take it because I think I just thought of it as the world of. Through the lens of I'm going to give up equity for money and that's it.

Dawson Barksdale [00:05:12]:
And although I need that money to continue to grow, equity is a real expensive way to raise money. And so if that's all you get, then that's not, that's probably not helpful. But what I realized or what I learned from the presenter, Daniel Frankenstein is his name. Really cool dude. And it was. And that is his real name. He said he didn't change it to that but very memorable. Cool dude, does not look like a monster.

Dawson Barksdale [00:05:35]:
Really well appointed guy. Yeah. Attractive fella. And so anyhow, if he hears this, I want him to know I respect him a ton. But he said that the thing that one of the greatest values that he, what I concluded was one of the greatest values that he has and offers to his founders in his VC fund is him is someone they can talk to to go, man, I'm struggling with this thing. And as an entrepreneur, man, I told my wife yesterday, it's like it's lonely, it's really hard and, and if you can't, if you can't handle that, then you're gonna stop sooner than you should have. And sometimes that's a good thing. But most of the time that means that you got really close to the breaking point, the tipping point and just couldn't get through it because it's just really hard.

Dawson Barksdale [00:06:24]:
If it was easy, everybody would do it. But having someone there who goes at 2:00 in the morning when you're racking your brain going, man, I don't know how we're going to make payroll or I got this, this legal letter about my intellectual property and somebody sent me a cease of the sister and I don't know what I'm going to do with it. And at 2:00 in the morning, you're racking your brain to have somebody you can text and they text back because they're probably up to. That's. That was something that I was like, man, that's super helpful and you know, sit on the board and all those other good things. But I think that it's starting to shift a little bit in the sense of I think that the better VCs are starting to understand that the best thing you can do is not just bring the money because the money is abundant and it's not about the money. I've started to say this money does grow on trees. Most people just cut the tree down the first time it grows and don't let it grow into a Forest.

Dawson Barksdale [00:07:20]:
And it's a. Once that, once you find that money tree, let it grow and then continue to nourish it, and then it'll build you a forest and then you can cut a couple trees down, build you a house then, and you'll never notice. And so, but it's, it's a. I think it's starting to pivot because a lot of the money came in and just flooded into the industry in a lot of different areas. SaaS, platforms, the dot com bubble, all of that stuff. And I think AI is going to end up, at some point, AI is going to end up being a bubble. I'm not saying that AI is a bad thing or it's a negative thing, but there's so much hype around it that there's going to be some that win big time and there's going to be a lot that lose a lot of money. And so I think that disciplined approach to venture capital from a founder's perspective, from an entrepreneur's perspective, going into venture capital with that mindset of not just getting the return, that's super important, but making sure that the founders have what they need to build their vision.

Dawson Barksdale [00:08:25]:
And so anyhow, that's, I think it's pivoting, if that answers your question. Great question.

Kenny Lange [00:08:31]:
Yeah, thank you. I work hard at this. No, I, I had a similar thought to you, which is like, okay, VC money can be used, but it's a last resort or potentially a necessary evil if the idea of the venture is so big that you can't. I think there are some things that don't have a real chance to succeed if you just bootstrap it. Although I'm a huge fan of, of bootstrapping.

Dawson Barksdale [00:08:59]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:09:00]:
Because that's, that's what I've done twice now. And so maybe I have a bit of a bias there, but, but it sounds like there's. That there is a greater value being placed on the mentorship coaching sort of relationship, the, maybe the more relational side of venture capital than just the transaction, which is what I think most people imagine that aren't in that space and maybe some that are imagine it to be. How would you. Then, how do you contrast that with. Well, I could raise less money or I could just sell something. Maybe I don't really want to, but it makes me some cash and hire a coach, a mentor, or join a, a peer group like a, like a Vistage or a convene or a C12 or something like that. What do you, what are you thinking or what are you seeing? And maybe it would be great if the, your presenter had his Ph.D.

Kenny Lange [00:09:58]:
because then I could call him Dr. Frankenstein, but Mr. Frankenstein. Dr. Frankenstein is my father. But I mean how, how would you interpret those to be different? Is it a, a case of, well, there's the right thing at particular time or is it, ah, if you have to go this route.

Dawson Barksdale [00:10:25]:
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think it, it's a. You have to know how to use it. Right. This is something that Ramsey talks about a lot and I respect Dave Ramsey a ton. What he's built, what he's done. I absolutely respect him. If you don't know how to manage money and you don't know what you're doing and you follow his plan, you're going to be okay.

Dawson Barksdale [00:10:48]:
However, it's not the only way to do it. It's one really good way to do it. Like no debt, pay it off, snowball effect, all that stuff. Fantastic. And that if you don't know what you're doing, you don't know how to use certain resources, that's a great way to do it. If you don't know how to use a, a VC and you don't know how to use private equity and you don't know how to use public money, if you go ipo, then don't do it. Like, if you don't know what you're doing and you don't know how to use it, you're going to get taken advantage of and it's going to hurt.

Kenny Lange [00:11:18]:
Yeah, it.

Dawson Barksdale [00:11:19]:
From a start. I love the bootstrap. And you, I think you've got to be able to bootstrap to an extent. Right. If you're, if your theory or your business model or your idea, your vision can't start to stand up on its own, at least a little bit. This is what we get into customer development. Steve Blank's lean startup methodology. If you can't go and, and talk to potential customers and prove that what that they have a problem they're willing to pay for and you've got that solution, if you can't do that and there's a very systematic way to do so, if you can't do that before you launch and then you watch and you don't get any traction, it's because you didn't do the first step.

Dawson Barksdale [00:11:58]:
And so I think there's like some businesses you've got to have scale because there's so much fixed costs that come into it, but you've got to make sure that your customer is actually going to be willing to pay for your solution. And so like, the question in the customer development process is, hey, tell me about something frustrating. Like it, Tell me about something in your, in business, in life, or whatever, this has been frustrating. Give me in this realm here, let me set the parameters to an extent. So like, can you tell me something about launching a podcast that's been frustrating? And then you answer it and then the next question that I would ask is, why is that frustrating? Well, tell me why that's frustrating, Tell me why that's difficult, tell me why that's hard, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and get to the root of like the difficulty. And then if you had a solution for that, would you be willing to pay for it? And sometimes it's like, well, I'm frustrated about this and this, and here's the core of the problem. Okay, well, Dawson, if that's the problem and you had a solution for it, would you be willing to pay for it? And if so, how much? I don't know if I'd be willing to. It's not that big of a problem.

Dawson Barksdale [00:13:07]:
It's just, it is what it is, right? Or I'd be willing to pay a hundred thousand dollars a day to solve that problem or a year to solve that problem. Once you get to that and you do it with enough customer potential customers, it's called customer development. If you do that with enough, then you can launch without bootstrapping. However, I think there's, I think that the pool of businesses that start without having some sort of traction already that become successful, like get 100x return or even a 10x return, I don't, I haven't done the research on it, but I think it's a pretty small group. I think you've got to have some traction first, understand the market, understand the solution. A lot of people, a lot of startups are a problem, are a solution looking for a problem. And the only way to do a real startup is to be to find the problem and create the solution. And a lot of times founders get it back.

Dawson Barksdale [00:14:01]:
I've done it before, we got it backwards. We thought we had a brilliant idea. And I still think it could work. The tech company called Cypher that we started, I think it could have worked, but we were a solution looking for a problem. And at the end of the day, our end customers weren't actually willing to pay for the solution we created. They were thankful for it. They just weren't willing to pay for it. And so, so I think that I Don't know if that answers your question about vc.

Dawson Barksdale [00:14:27]:
I think the tide is shifting a little bit, but I also think it maybe is something that I'm starting to be. I'm starting. My eyes are starting to open to a different side of it and go, ah, okay. I don't know if it's just always been this way, and I'm just starting to realize it. It's like driving up to the Rocky Mountains. It's like, man, if you've never seen. It's like, when did this show up? So it's been there a long time, Dawson. You just have never been here.

Kenny Lange [00:14:52]:
And so it's like pictures did not do this justice.

Dawson Barksdale [00:14:55]:
Yeah. For real? Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:14:57]:
That's really intriguing. Well, I do like what you said about knowing how to use it and seeing it as a tool, which is what I. I hear you saying when. And compare and contrasting Dave Ramsey's methodology versus, you know, the others that are out there is. And you'll hear whether it's like a Mark Cuban or Grant Cardone or somebody else that talk about, well, not all debt is bad if you know how to use it right. And you can springboard into multiple things. And I would almost drill down further what came to mind. It's not just knowing how to use it, which I certainly think is important.

Kenny Lange [00:15:37]:
But I also heard in what you were saying is having maybe a more clear vision of where you're wanting to go instead of, I've got a thing, I'm going to need money, I might need this. Like, it's not even just, you may not know how to use the vc, like the fund manager or somebody else that you'd have access to. But if you're not entirely sure of where you want to go, well, you're just now like randomly using resources and you're still frustrated. Do you think that's a key part of it? Is in particular the founder or co founders having crystal clear vision on at least what the next several steps might look like? Because then that should inform what tools you need to bring to the table.

Dawson Barksdale [00:16:22]:
That's a great question. I think that the. And as I'm uncovering and peeling the layers back on this thing, I think the more common problem is the reverse of. I think founders can see the top of the mountain. And I've got this problem, right? Like, I'm a visionary and so I can see the top of the mountain in the next few steps. I don't like, who cares? Like, I want to get up there. And so it's like we're just going to figure it out along the way. That's probably more common amongst, amongst founders of going, hey Kenny, if you could talking pitching to a VC fund, if you could just see the top of the mountain and if I could clearly show you the top of the mountain and go look up there, look how beautiful.

Dawson Barksdale [00:17:02]:
Like, look how fun it's going to be when we get there. It's a huge mountain and it's like, yeah, that's great, but what are the next few steps? And I see that as one of the hiccups of founders getting into taking on VC money is going those next few steps are so pivotal. If the VC is not clear on how to get you there or worst case scenario they take advantage of you in that process to get you out and take your technology and move forward without you is I think that's where a lot of the heartburn from the industry comes from is I, I, this is all projection at this point. As I'm peeling the layers back, I'm starting to learn a lot more. But the if a founder's not careful and they don't have those next few steps lined out and they run into a VC fund that might be a little bit more ambitious. Might you say they, they could easily go, hey, these are the next steps we're going to take. I think it's interesting because the founder's goal is to maximize is to achieve their vision. Right? The founder's goal is not to maximize returns.

Dawson Barksdale [00:18:03]:
The founder's goal should be and always should be how do I achieve? How do I get to the top of the mountain? And so if and that's the those are the kind of founders you want unfortunately, or however you want to look at it along the way. A VC fund gets in. Their ambition is different. The ambition for the VC fund is to go, hey, we've got to get you to a point where we can sell you to either a larger VC or a private equity firm or go public or a strategic buyer in the next 60 months. And so and I've just got to get a return because I've got a business I've got to run. And so if you get a really good offer he we've given this guy a Ph.D. now Dr. Frankenstein.

Dawson Barksdale [00:18:43]:
It's an honorary doctorate from the How Leaders Think. Yeah, the he talked about how some founders that he had with a really good technology and we did a case study on it and he told us the rest of the story. Really good tech, really successful, had started making quite a bit of money one of their biggest clients basically offered to buy them, but offered to buy them under all stock and leaving some of the things out. It's like, man, that was a great deal. But, man, just the founders and the VC have sometimes misaligned incentives or ambitions. And so I think that's the thing that as a founder looking into taking on VC money, you've got to make sure that you know what your goals are very explicitly and understand that the VC may not have the same goals and try to align as much as you can along that way, along that path.

Kenny Lange [00:19:35]:
That. That's. I think that's some great wisdom. Do. Do you think that is there? Obviously there's a vetting process for VCs and looking at which companies are gonna. They're gonna invest in.

Dawson Barksdale [00:19:48]:
Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:19:48]:
And some VCs. I love watching Shark Tank. I think it's great. I would encourage anybody who's interested in business, like, listen to the questions the sharks ask, like, pay attention. Like, they're giving you like a virtual MBA just by sharing some of those things that are just natural questions that these other people aren't thinking of.

Dawson Barksdale [00:20:09]:
Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:20:09]:
But sometimes they're looking to, do I back the jockey or back the horse? Which I know that there are some founders, like, they may have. Most visionaries, I joke when I'm talking to my clients and even joking about myself is, you know, I'll have a hundred ideas before lunch and 99 of them sit stock. Right. But that one may create outsized returns. So is there a way to find better alignment? Because I think some people are going into a VC pitch meeting or just considering it, thinking, okay, well, it's one. It's just money. They're not thinking about the mentorship aspect. So that's one like misnomer.

Kenny Lange [00:20:50]:
But how do they find a firm or an individual who can align? Because that missile you study leadership as well is you have misalignments within senior leadership team and suddenly, like the company's tanking, let alone when now you have this huge injection of cash and you have very differing goals. And that person, if they took on equity now, actually has a say. Unlike other leaders on a leadership team, you can just. You can fire them if you're the founder and you have 100% equity.

Dawson Barksdale [00:21:25]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:21:25]:
But now somebody actually does have, you know, skin in the game. Is there a way to go about finding that alignment? And initially, obviously, you're going to have to navigate the relationship, but to make sure that those goals do stay aligned or to find a way to create shared incentives. Right. Because like you you incentivize what you want to see repeated thing and behaviors. That's why we talk about it when we design comp plans. But I think that applies also when you're looking at well, what type of exit are we looking to make or what sort of growth are we looking to achieve? How have you been thinking whether as somebody who has raised capital but now maybe someone who's thinking of being the person who offers capital about creating that alignment in that relationship.

Dawson Barksdale [00:22:14]:
Yeah, I mean that's it. Everybody's going to say this. It's you got to go on a few days. You got to get to know them because a a business relationship is. Is more complicated than marriage and harder to get out of and so and usually more expensive. But the I use that kind of adjust but it's still, it's very much a. You got to uncover some things about who they are as much as you can. And I would say almost with a few outliers, almost 100% of the time you need to bet on the jockey.

Dawson Barksdale [00:22:50]:
The I had a. I'll give you an example. The when we had so when we had Cipher, the tech company mobile marketing software application, we were going for our seed round. First bit of money that was coming from the outside in and it was a $1.25 million seed round if my memory serves me correctly. We had a lead investor who was taking on a huge chunk of that. I met with him on a regular basis on every Monday we had a standing meeting, was a mentor advisor, wanted to be our lead investor, believed in what we were doing, had expertise in the field. And he asked right before we're about to make capital calls, he asked dawson, I got one question for you this morning. We're about to make the capital call.

Dawson Barksdale [00:23:34]:
You're about to raise the money. We're about to go through the process and bring in all the follow on investors. I'm going to give you X amount of money, hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have a question. Knowing what you know now about your business and about this startup and about this world, would you rather go with the plan that you have or start from scratch with the same amount of money and do it all over again? And I was like, huh? That's a really good question. He goes, all right, well I'm out. And I was like, whoa, what? He goes I'm out. I'm not interested in investing at this time.

Dawson Barksdale [00:24:08]:
And I was like, wait, hold on. What? He goes, well let me be really clear. I believe in you. And if you Believe in your plan. You wouldn't question it even when asked that question. Question. I needed to know that you had ever all your eggs in that basket and that you had absolutely no doubt that you were going to move forward with this plan and that my money was going to go to good use. He goes, and for that he goes, I think that you've got a good idea.

Dawson Barksdale [00:24:38]:
I think that you can figure it out. If you're not as confident as I am in it, then I can't give you my money. And he goes, and you're about to have the worst two weeks of your life because you're about to have to lay everybody off, which is what my recommendation is. You lay everybody off, dissolve the company or restructure it and either decide to go do it again or set it on the shelf. And I was like, dang. And he was right. It was the hardest two weeks of my life. I've had some rough two week spells, but that one was the toughest.

Dawson Barksdale [00:25:07]:
And still feel terrible because there were some people that left really good paying jobs to come join us and they had been there for three weeks. And I was like, we're shutting the whole thing down. And so it was really hard. But it showed me this is a guy. The money to him was not, I mean it was a lot of money, but it wasn't a lot percentage wise for what he's used to. And so it wasn't about the money, it was about, I need to know that you're confident in do in your plan. And so betting on that jockey of going, hey, regardless of what race car you get or what horse you get to ride, are you confident you can win? Hey, you, I'll, I'll run it on my own two feet and win this race. That's how confident I am.

Dawson Barksdale [00:25:47]:
In me, that kind of confidence is good as long as it turned into narcissistic arrogance. And so that's where you got to get to know somebody. So.

Kenny Lange [00:25:54]:
Right, right, right.

Dawson Barksdale [00:25:54]:
But it's that jockey, betting on the jockey and getting to know them and going, are we going to be able to. I love this. I, I love. One of my favorites and it's super simple. You've heard it before, is the airport test. Right. If you go to the airport with this guy and you get your flight gets canceled or delayed a few hours, are you going to be like, I've got to get away from this person. Like, I cannot.

Dawson Barksdale [00:26:17]:
I've got to either. I've got to do something else. I can't hang out with at the airport, stuck with this person. If you say that I probably don't want to get in business with them. Right. Yeah. If you go, if they pass the airport test, then, man, maybe it's worth talking about. So anyhow, that I don't know if that answers your question or not about.

Kenny Lange [00:26:35]:
Who to bet on now. I like that. But it also, I think is a great lesson for founders leaders, maybe those that want to be founders, that are listening, that just the importance of getting clear on the plan and having confidence in it and that if you don't be honest because even though that as you admitted, one of the roughest two weeks of your life, but it was the right decision because of what that guy surfaced. And you may not have surfaced it if it were not for that mentorship relationship and having someone who's been there done that maybe a little bit more than you to ask you some questions you don't know to ask yourself. Like. And I've even found this, it is annoying to me that I need other people is what I joke is like, I'm in a, I'm in a business where I, I'm coaching. Like, I need people to talk with me and do this and I'm there for them and I'm great. And then the second I need what I provide, then I'm like, this is dumb.

Kenny Lange [00:27:39]:
But I, but one thing I, that I have learned in particular over the last year or so is I can ask me a really good question. And let's, let's say you and I are sitting down to coffee and you ask me the very same question. I'm giving you the better answer. And some of that is because we're really good, especially those of us that fall in that visionary category that are the driven sort of entrepreneur, always finding possibility sort of thing. Some of that confidence comes from ignoring a whole lot of evidence that says we shouldn't do this. To your point, at the very beginning and even before we record, it's like I'm just dumb enough to believe I can do whatever it is I set my mind to. Right? Like, I don't believe in my limits. Not that you think you're going to like jump off a building and fly, but that's a different set of problems.

Kenny Lange [00:28:33]:
And I, I only have a bachelor's in psychology, so I can't help you. But, but I do think that there's, there's something there to having that other person across from you ask a question because you can't outmaneuver that other person. You're not like you can yourself. You can lie to yourself better than you can lie to anybody else for sure. And I do think that probably does. And I'm not going to know the research and the information quite like you will but because I've not been looking into it. But I have to imagine that the downfall of a lot of founders and leaders who try to step out into these big ideas, a lot of the failure could come from they were lying to themselves and they weren't around people that were willing to be honest and truthful and speak with what Kim Scott calls radical candor to where you can. You got to care directly or care personally and challenge directly.

Kenny Lange [00:29:34]:
So it doesn't mean you get to be an a hole but it does mean that it is uncaring for you to not speak the truth to that person. And 100 sometimes we need those people to holding up those mirrors in order for us to finally see reality. And I'm curious if that's been your experience or things you've seen even from the other leaders that, that you happen to be around.

Dawson Barksdale [00:29:55]:
Yeah, I think to be a good leader one of the things that I've always my working definition of leadership is followership that inspires followership. There's a great book by Tony, Dr. Tony Bridwell called the Follower Effect. I thought I had it over here. Somebody may have taken it off my shelf. Yep, somebody took it off my shelf.

Kenny Lange [00:30:16]:
Hopefully they're putting it to good use.

Dawson Barksdale [00:30:17]:
Yeah, for sure they are.

Kenny Lange [00:30:18]:
We'll put an Amazon link.

Dawson Barksdale [00:30:20]:
Absolutely do that. Oh Tony will appreciate that. But it talks about the value of being able to follow well because if you can't follow well then you don't know how to lead well. But the key to being able to lead well is self awareness. Are like are you self aware enough? Do you know how you come across to others? Because if you're not there have been some really great companies built off of just straight dominance. Just do what I do, what I tell you to do because I told you to do it. This is my company. You're going to go get it done.

Dawson Barksdale [00:30:55]:
And that's great. And those are anomalies. Those are 100. I'll never forget there was a group of guys that were like we're going to be. We're going, we're going to be successful because we're jerks like Steve Jobs. And I was like hold on. I don't think that's what made him successful. For the record, I don't think him being a jerk was what made him so successful? I think him being a jerk was the way that his radical candor came off.

Dawson Barksdale [00:31:21]:
I so much believe in this mission and vision and that we can achieve it, that if you can't stay up to my standards, then I'm going to, I'm going to push you to do so. Nick Saban on the field, one of the best coaches of all time, best. One of the best leaders we've seen in our generation was a jerk on the field because he knew that if he let his players slack, he knew that they were able to do more, he knew that they were able to do better. And so he had to challenge them to do so. So he. There are times where he came off as a jerk. If you just watched it in isolation, you'd be like, that dude's an a hole. Yeah, absolutely.

Dawson Barksdale [00:31:57]:
It's like, well, yeah, if you look at it in isolation, however, you don't get to see behind the scenes. And there are players who still respect him next to the Virgin Mary, almost like some of his players would fight, still fight for him because they know he cared and he was self aware to know where his limits were. And then he had to. And he had a vision of what he wanted to accomplish. And so I think for leaders, that self awareness of going, am I pushing too hard for my vision? Even though it's the wrong way? I've done it before with our tech company. My business partner Adam, at the time, afterwards we had a debrief after we shut the whole thing down and I was able to recover. I was like, hey, I need to get your feedback on this. And he told me, he said, you lead with a lot of conviction.

Dawson Barksdale [00:32:42]:
And I was young, I was 27, I think. Yeah, 27, 28. Gosh, that was almost 10 years. Yeah, yeah. Anyhow, we. He said, you lead with a lot of conviction. And it was hard to tell you something that you didn't like. Hard to get you to do something you didn't believe in.

Dawson Barksdale [00:32:58]:
And I was like, that's fair. I was like, what? But unpack that. He goes, when I said this, we should go this way, you didn't believe it was the right way to go. And that I think that's what spelled our doom. And I was like, dang, okay, no pressure. That's. So it's my fault. Okay, all right then.

Dawson Barksdale [00:33:14]:
But I said, you know, going forward I need to know that and be respectful of that and, and try to bring that out of my people. But I do leave with a lot of conviction and I Do lead with a lot of passion and I do see a vision that I want to pursue. And if you think that we shouldn't pursue it, you need to be willing to jump off the ship. If you think I'm sending it into the rocks, Dawson, if you keep going that way, you're going to send it into the rocks, sink the whole ship. If you don't stop now and turn it. I getting off the boat. That's enough. And I was like, he said, okay, that's fair.

Dawson Barksdale [00:33:44]:
And so we haven't worked together since, but we, I pro, I totally would because we know each other better now and I've, yeah, I hope I've gained some self awareness and humility since my late 20s. I hope.

Kenny Lange [00:33:57]:
You and me both, brother.

Dawson Barksdale [00:33:58]:
Yeah, for sure.

Kenny Lange [00:34:00]:
Yeah, I, I was, I was very, very similar and I, I, I think it was, I, I had to lay everyone off as well, including a married couple and that was all of their income. It also happened to be my, one of my pastor's daughters and her husband and we were also on church leadership together. So it was an awkward weekend. Now we have a good relationship and all of that now, but it was tough and I asked a lot of those same questions. And part of the feedback was, you're really intense. And when you're frustrated at some, even though it's frustrated in nobody, it's just like there's another obstacle or something like that. Like, oh man. Like there's this problem.

Kenny Lange [00:34:43]:
Okay, well, I'm just gonna, I'll get mad enough. Fix it. They said that it was really tough to be around even though we knew it had nothing to do with us. And I was like, okay, I just thought I was passionate, but apparently I singed some eyebrows. Good to know. And I've been aware of that. And then that there's also, there's people that you can do that. Again, self awareness, like, how am I impacting people? And is it the right way for me to speak this way and come across this way with this person versus that person? And I don't think that's an encouragement to be fake or insincere, disingenuous, but just like a good speaker, knowing your audience, right, like know who you're speaking to, what do they need to hear to get the results? Like, are you more concerned about yourself and getting what you want versus meeting some ultimate objective? Which I think even going back to the VC piece is finding that partner.

Kenny Lange [00:35:40]:
Like you said, it is a bit like a marriage to where we can have like there's A shared outcome. We may disagree on how to get there, but at least we can agree that we're trying to head to the same place and we can work it out along the way.

Dawson Barksdale [00:35:53]:
For sure. Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:35:56]:
What this question has come to me as you've been thinking about this and what. And based on what you've been learning, what type of VC do you want to be? Not necessarily like, what are you looking to invest in? But if you're a venture capitalist, what do you think marks the type of fund you have? The leadership? Like, if I'm coming to Dawson's Group, what is it I'm looking for there that I'm not getting somewhere else? And it may have more to do with your personality, your leadership style or something like that, or is there really something in the marketplace? You're like, I think that this particular approach haven't been done quite this way. And I think that would be interesting, man.

Dawson Barksdale [00:36:43]:
Asking for my sales pitch even though I don't have a business yet. Yeah, I love it.

Kenny Lange [00:36:47]:
The build the sh. Ship while you sail it. Okay. That's right. The entrepreneurial way.

Dawson Barksdale [00:36:52]:
I think that it's. I think what I hear you asking is what do you want to be known for? What is not as important is the industry or the type of business. What is important is the way that we interact with the way that we make decisions. I. My current business is one of our core values is people over profit. Yes, we want to make a lot of money. Yes, we want to build a really successful business. 100%.

Dawson Barksdale [00:37:22]:
And when the decision comes between a profit decision or a people decision and they're mutually excluded. They are. I can only choose one. I'm going to choose the people decision. And how do I honor the team? How do I support the team? How do I build a better place than what we left? One of my favorite quotes from a movie and some silly movie, I can't remember what it's from, but the measure of a. Of a great man is his willingness and ability to plant a tree under which he will never enjoy its shade. It's like that. It was some silly movie.

Dawson Barksdale [00:37:57]:
But it. That quote stuck with me and I was like, that's. Yes, I want to be successful. Yes, I would want to put points on the board. And in the business world, the way you put points on the board is making a lot of money. But at the end of the day, like, that's the most meaningless part. That's the part that is. That means the least and is most fleeting.

Dawson Barksdale [00:38:16]:
We've seen that with Inflation, it can disappear like that. But the reputation that you have is way more important. Can you do the right thing for the right people? Most often. And so I think the thing that gets me most excited about it is, and I've said this since I worked with, with Magnolia and Waco and got to work with hundreds of realtors is my favorite thing about the job was believing in some of these realtors more than they believed in themselves until they did. And I've got a few different examples of folks that would come in my office and be like, I just don't think I can do this anymore.

Kenny Lange [00:38:51]:
I'm like, you're.

Dawson Barksdale [00:38:53]:
You're the top sales rep in the whole organization and in the entire community. What, Where. Are you missing something here? Maybe you do need to get out of the business, but you just need somebody to believe in you as much as you want to believe in yourself. And not in a foolish way of going, yeah, Kenny, I believe you can jump off that building and fly. No, let's be real. But to go, man, sometimes you just need somebody to unlock that potential, help you unlock that potential. And I think that's the part that I get most excited about, is going, man, how do we find these organizations and these entrepreneurs and these founders, wherever they're from, whatever they're doing, and go, let's go do this. Let's.

Dawson Barksdale [00:39:31]:
You can do this. You can't do it alone, but you can do it. Or that we actually believe will be successful. We don't want people jumping off buildings anytime soon.

Kenny Lange [00:39:41]:
So I, I love that and I love the planting the tree quote. I've. I've heard that in a couple of other places as well. And it's a thought. It's a thought. It's a great a thought exercise on. If you're. You hear it, you're like, oh, yeah, that.

Kenny Lange [00:39:54]:
That'd be nice. But it's like when you start thinking about what, what you're really committing to if you're going to walk down that path, is very sobering. You know, something I, I was hearing you say reminded me of this line that I use a lot, and I've used it for years in leadership development stuff, but it actually came from my wedding vows. So my, My wife and I now, as of this recording, 15 and a half years, we were married back in 09 and congratulate her. Not me, but the minister that was officiating. He did all the normal, rich or poor, sickness health, all that stuff. And the last one he threw out was to bring out the best in her. And I was like, like, we didn't.

Dawson Barksdale [00:40:38]:
Talk about this off script.

Kenny Lange [00:40:40]:
Yeah, yeah. I didn't realize this was a episode of Whose Line. So I'm showing my age because there's gonna be a bunch of Gen Z. Like, what is that? Are you talking about the one that was on the Up Man? Yes, Drew Carey version. But that same idea of the unlocking the potential of bringing out the best. There is an excitement if you're on that side of it, but there's also just such a richness and a blessing if you're the recipient of someone who's thinking about that instead of just what can I get from you? Instead of what can I unlock within you?

Dawson Barksdale [00:41:17]:
Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:41:17]:
This has been a. A great conversation. Is definitely. I love it in part because it's different than a lot of the others that, that I've had so there. I always love venturing into new territory, so I need that constant stimulus, I think. I don't know, maybe I have adhd, maybe I don't. But if someone is thinking, hey, Dawson, that you made a lot of sense, this has really got me thinking now about whether or not VC money is for me and my business or maybe if someone else is. Is considering, should I be involved in that world, what's a baby step? And maybe that you're even thinking about your own baby steps.

Kenny Lange [00:41:59]:
What's a baby step someone could take in the next 24 hours, little to no money, to see if that is the right move and the right tool for them?

Dawson Barksdale [00:42:08]:
At this moment, it's. It. It feels like a self awareness question. Right. I think I would answer the same way. Regardless of if it's I want to get into the VC world or I want to get into my own business, it's going like, what? It's going to sound so cliche. Why? Right.

Kenny Lange [00:42:26]:
Okay.

Dawson Barksdale [00:42:27]:
One of my favorite books is Start with why by Simon Sinek and Understanding Purpose of why do I want to do this? I think that, like, for instance, I think that if someone were to say, hey, I want to look into venture capital, my first question would be why? Or I want to look into starting my own business, or I want to look into I want to be a leader. Why? Ooh, this one's my favorite. Wrong answer to why I want to start a business. Hey, Dustin, I want to start my own business. Why do you want to do that? Well, because I don't want to have a boss. You miss, you've misunderstood what starting your own business is actually going to be like. And so I Want to set my own hours. Well, you don't get.

Dawson Barksdale [00:43:07]:
You get to do that when you've been successful for years.

Kenny Lange [00:43:11]:
Right?

Dawson Barksdale [00:43:11]:
Years. That. And it's a lot longer period of time than one would think. It's a. I think that would be the. And as hard as it is to go, hey, the first step is to become self aware and go, why am I interested in that? What is it about it that is interesting? And if I can answer those questions and it doesn't have, and this is the beauty of it, it doesn't have anything to do with the financial return. Hey, I want to get into rich capital because you get rich, huh? I want to get into private equity because it's a bunch of money. I want to be an investment banker.

Dawson Barksdale [00:43:43]:
I want to start my own business because I'm going to make all this money. Well, you're not. It's going to be hard and it's going to. But you could. But it's a. If it doesn't have. If the reasons why someone is interested in something is not because of the money. Okay, now take the next step.

Dawson Barksdale [00:43:59]:
That's the first step. Why do you want to do it? What's the real purpose? Because the money, when the money gets hard, you're going to drop out. And so for a leader, right. When the money gets difficult and the money is the driver, when the money dries up, you're out and you quit, you give up. And so I think that would probably be the first step. That's a good book to start with. Why? Or anything from Simon Sinek. He's got a couple podcasts and a couple different videos, TED talks and stuff that would be helpful, but I don't know.

Dawson Barksdale [00:44:26]:
There you go.

Kenny Lange [00:44:27]:
Yeah, great question. That's a great one. Oh, thanks. There's a video fellow coach friend of mine showed me and now I've integrated it in the long term vision setting aspect of my work of one of my workshops. It's like a four or five minute clip of Simon and he's talking about three tests of any vision which, which gets at the your Y. But he talks about having a just cause.

Dawson Barksdale [00:44:53]:
Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:44:54]:
Which comes from his book the Infinite Game.

Dawson Barksdale [00:44:56]:
Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:44:56]:
But he says that it's man the three tests. It, it has to. It cannot be dependent or, or it has to survive any political or technological or cultural shifts that may happen. Right. So like if your vision is dependent on. And you and I are recording this a week after the election. Right. Like if your vision only existed under a certain administration, it's not Clear.

Kenny Lange [00:45:21]:
It's not consistent. It could wither away and dry up. It has to be service based, like a cert. It has to offer some sort of service and then it cannot. It has to be about someone other than yourself. Yep, I think I got those right. Well, we'll link up the video, but it is a phenomenal interview and I'm just like, dang, okay. That's really simple.

Kenny Lange [00:45:42]:
Of course, he's brilliant at. It's simplifying the complex and making you feel like an idiot, at least for a moment. And then you rework your thing according to that and you're like, I am brilliant.

Dawson Barksdale [00:45:53]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:45:53]:
So there's some great resources we'll link to. The start with why Infinite Game. There's also Leaders Eat Last. It was one of his other books.

Dawson Barksdale [00:46:00]:
Yep.

Kenny Lange [00:46:01]:
Really anything he writes is stinking brilliant. As well as that video. Dawson, if people want to know more about you, what you're doing, want to know more about whether it's local or other ventures, you're on boards, things like that, what's the best way to get in contact with you?

Dawson Barksdale [00:46:16]:
Yeah, for sure. It'd be LinkedIn at this point. I'm on there often and try to stay pretty active on there. So that's the best way to do it. And it's just my first and last name, Dawson Barksdale, which will probably be in the meeting. Notes, side note on Simon Sinek, which you've already brought up the faith aspect of this and I assume some of your listeners probably believe some of the same things. My favorite part about Simon Sinek is that all of his content is pulled straight from Proverbs. Like it.

Dawson Barksdale [00:46:42]:
It's all. I love that it's a. Hey, all this stuff, Simon is thousands of years old and you're repackaging it in a way that's so good. It's so helpful. But Bible said that a few years before you did. And I just. I love the. I love how that so graciously graphs into and aligns with biblical truths that are eternal.

Dawson Barksdale [00:47:05]:
But ton of no disrespect to Simon, ton of respect for him and what he's done and what he's doing. And it's also funny of going, that's improver. It's just said a little differently, but it's the same idea. And so.

Kenny Lange [00:47:16]:
But yeah, that's the best language a bit.

Dawson Barksdale [00:47:18]:
That's right. That's the best way to reach me is on LinkedIn.

Kenny Lange [00:47:21]:
Gotcha. And if you are a listener in the greater Tyler, Texas area, you can check out local carwash dot us maybe. And it's right down the road from from my house. It's got a cool sign, cool colors. So great job on the branding. All right, well, Dawson, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this. I hope to have you back in the future to drop some wisdom on us.

Kenny Lange [00:47:46]:
Maybe you'll be announcing your newest venture. We'll have a whole release party. But for all of you listeners, thank you so much for spending a little bit of your day with us. We hope that it was not just enjoyable, but also really practical and helpful for you in your leadership journey. So it'd mean a lot if you would like, rate, review, subscribe any of those engagement actions. They mean a lot to me in doing this work. I want it to be helpful and that feedback helps me know what people are paying attention to. Just like Dawson said, I don't want to be a solution looking for a problem.

Kenny Lange [00:48:18]:
I want to make sure that I'm answering questions that y'all are asking that you're looking for and helping you take your next step in leadership. And doing that also bubbles this up in front of more people on the different platforms and the algorithms so that more people stumble across us that actually need it. So you could be just paying it forward to someone else who is on their leadership journey and and that would be just a great gift to give. Cost you no money. So until next time, change the way you think you'll change the way you read.