How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

HLT David Kolbe Full Interview
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[00:00:00] David Kolbe: on one end of the scale, is somebody who is open-ended, adaptable, flexible. You give them a system, maybe they'll go through the system one time, but if they do it the second time, they are finding shortcuts. They're jumping to the end. The other end are people who naturally systematize. If something's chaotic they see the pattern, put it down so that it can be repeated and followed. very different approaches. So much of the advice that we hear, though, is driven toward the second half ​

[00:00:31] Kenny Lange: Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I'm your host Kenny Lang, and with me today is the David Kolby. He is the CEO and chief visionary of. Kolby Corp, which say that five times fast, if you do, he'll appear in your office space.

[00:00:51] David is transforming how the world understands human performance. He comes from a lineage of psychometric pioneers, which that's also a fun one to say five [00:01:00] times fast, and as the CEO of Kolby Corp. And they are the leader in helping people leverage their instinctive strengths to achieve what they care about most, which I, who doesn't love that?

[00:01:11] I do. We're about to get into it. David helped develop the original algorithm for the Kolby A Index, the only proven tool to unlock cognitive strengths. And I hope I said that right. Otherwise, we're gonna have my editor just totally fix it. It'll be like a t and t made for TV movie or something where they edit out all the swearing.

[00:01:32] Welcome to the show, David.

[00:01:34] David Kolbe: Kenny, great to be here. Thanks for having me. And yeah, looking forward to telling everybody about their conative strengths.

[00:01:41] Kenny Lange: There you go. We're just gonna say it over and over. It's like when you meet somebody and you're afraid you're gonna forget their names. Like, so David, how long have you done this? David? It's good to meet you, Dave. David. And then you sound like a weirdo and they run away, but you can't do that. Or I guess you could.

[00:01:56] You could just like end the call and delete the window. But [00:02:00] David, tell me today what is on your mind?

[00:02:03] David Kolbe: A lot. Things are a little crazy. So what's on my mind is helping people focus on the things that they can control, the things they can count on, which really starts from inside. People are worried about so much out in the world that is beyond their control. And we help people get back to, Hey, what is it inside you that drives the way you take action and therefore drives your success?

[00:02:28] Kenny Lange: I I like that. I also, I made some jokes. I really do love the, the, the word choice in, in your bio about human performance and leverage instinctive strengths. I think that there's a lot of. And this is part of what my podcast is meant to rebel against of the guru wisdom of like, let me show you the one best way, right?

[00:02:49] Like, you gotta get up at 4:00 AM walk backwards, three miles, listen to a podcast at three, three x speed while writing in your gratitude journal. If you're gonna be anything in this life you seem to take a [00:03:00] different approach as well. Can you talk about instinctive strengths and does, is that what you're meaning when you're saying, Hey, we're.

[00:03:07] We're trying to do better at recognizing and controlling only the things that we can control.

[00:03:12] David Kolbe: Yeah, so first of all, I love the way you put it going, going against the one size fits all, guru or otherwise, but. That's what we're conditioned to listen to, is that person that is so convincing because look, they did it. This is the path that they took, and they're successful. So that must be the path.

[00:03:33] There's not one path. And what we do I think the foundation of what we do is to help people understand there's something inside you that drives the way you take action. So there's a lot of advice out there. That's great advice for other people. And you need to learn to let it go. And it's hard because your friends start doing it and other people with success doing it that way.

[00:03:57] And so it's, it's [00:04:00] one of those easier said than done because it, it is very attractive. It's simple, it cuts to the chase, but it helps to just go a couple of steps deeper and figure out, so I would say the first step is just figure out, and this gets back to your question, the instinctive part.

[00:04:14] What we've seen is people are hardwired to have an instinctive way of taking action, and when they're able to follow those strengths, they can get more done and not get burned out so quickly. They can use less energy and then they can decide what to do with that energy that's kinda left over.

[00:04:32] They can have some downtime. They can turn it into other endeavors if they want, but that's up to them.

[00:04:39] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Yeah, it it makes me think of I, I've been doing some research on like growth versus scaling. And growth is like this continuous, a addition of more, which I'm not saying anything bad about growth, growth is great. But scaling is almost like doing more with less, right? Like, and it may be leaning into those [00:05:00] instincts and the hard wiring.

[00:05:01] Now we do that. We think EII would say it's more easy or easier. There we go. Sorry, whoever my English teacher was just now. But it's easier for us to think about that in an organizational context, but we don't really think about scaling ourselves.

[00:05:18] David Kolbe: Right.

[00:05:19] Kenny Lange: It would you say that some of that is, is what is the prevailing wisdom or current thinking?

[00:05:26] When it comes to really leaders leveraging their strengths is there's number one, like you said, there's, there is this best set of strengths. Do I have 'em, do I need to lean into 'em? Do I need to develop 'em? And then also the. I'm scaling my company, I'm scaling my nonprofit, I'm scaling my ministry, whatever it is.

[00:05:47] But they don't really think about how am I scaling myself?

[00:05:50] David Kolbe: Yeah. Fascinating question. Growth versus scaling. I think from an individual level, yes. The, what we're talking about, the strengths we're talking about [00:06:00] tapping into them are how you scale yourself. So, lemme give a little background of what the heck it is we're talking about. So this conative part of the mind.

[00:06:09] At a big picture level, there are really three fundamental parts of the human mind thinking, feeling, and doing. So the thinking, the cognitive part, how smart you are, and your learned skills. And there are all kinds of cognitive tests. IQ tests, SAT test, spelling test. Go down the line. If you're a, an accountant and you took a CPA test, it's another cognitive test.

[00:06:32] The affective feeling part is our preferences, our desires, they're all kinds of affective instruments. I know you use Enneagram and Working Geniuses, one Myers-Briggs disc Predictive Index. There are a bunch of really solid ones. You have to watch out. They're also a bunch of, not very solid, but maybe fun ones you can find on the internet.

[00:06:55] Take that for fun if you want, but don't put too much stock in some of those other ones. But [00:07:00] then there's this third part of the mind. It's not how we think or feel, but it's the way we take action. This concept goes back literally to the Greek philosophers, Plato Aristotle. Talking about the conative part of the mind, the way we take action.

[00:07:13] So it's not how we think or feel, but how we do and what we've seen at Kolbe Corp is seems to be hardwired. It doesn't change over time. We've done test retest studies and it's very stable. Lemme give you an example. So one of the things we look at, four, what we call action modes. One of them is how we deal with gathering and sharing information.

[00:07:33] So I happen to be on one end of that spectrum where I I ask a lot of questions. I get information. I really research drive to become an expert. If you ask me a question, if I don't know the answer, I'd rather not guess. I'd rather go find it out and get back to you. Now, maybe you've already done the research and I can just say, oh, it's this.

[00:07:53] People on the other end of the spectrum, they don't need all that data and all that information. They really key on just the most [00:08:00] important bits of information. And keep in mind, this is not how intelligent you are. So it's not like the person on the end where I am with all kinds of facts and figures.

[00:08:08] That's not, that doesn't make me smarter. You can be really dumb and have lots of facts and figures and you just can't make sense of them. Unfortunately, we know some of those people who like to spout facts and details, and you're like, yeah, but you are really missing the point. But so that's just an example of when you tap into that kind of lean into your strengths, you'll be more effective and more efficient.

[00:08:31] And that's, I think, the scaling. You'll be more efficient. You will use less energy because you're doing it the way that's natural for you.

[00:08:40] Kenny Lange: A and. There, there's so many different ways I wanna take this, but I do love the idea of the three different centers of intelligence that you're describing of thinking, feeling and then doing and doing is harder to see may maybe in, in my experience and, and understanding but also maybe harder to understand.

[00:08:59] [00:09:00] I heard a teacher, so, uh, the Enneagram accounts for this and utilizes the three centers of intelligence. And I heard a teacher on these three centers talk about like, we typically we do have a dominant one, which is what I think you're getting into is that you, you have all three, but one's gonna be that, that more natural that one that we lean into most often.

[00:09:20] And. The doing folk. Like we take in the information with our body and can act before our brain has a chance to catch up. Now the brain eventually does. And in my case, my brain process is what my body's feeling, my feelings. I don't know where they are. I'll I've been trying to find them.

[00:09:41] So if anybody could help me with that, maybe a therapist out there I'll figure 'em out. But when I heard that there was a a feeling of being seen and a bit of a relief that came to me because I was like, oh this way's, okay. It's just, I. Less understood [00:10:00] with as many as thousands and thousands of people who take your test every year.

[00:10:04] And the research y'all have done, are y'all finding that same thing of just the, oh, this way of being of getting work done of where I tend to lean initially is actually giving me permission to relax a little

[00:10:20] David Kolbe: Yeah. Yeah. We hear that over and over again when we work with clients. They'll get their KOLBY index results and go. Oh my gosh. And that feeling of relief, that's a word that comes of lightness of freedom. A lot of people talk about, because

[00:10:35] You know I talked about the three parts of mine. The first two are the ones that you've been taught about.

[00:10:41] And they're really important. You go to school and that's really mostly about your cognitive skills. What have you learned? Learn more stuff that you can use in your work life for the most part. And we've all been taught about emotional intelligence and our feelings and again, those are very important.

[00:10:57] This is not a, we are better or more important, the conative [00:11:00] piece, it's not that, it's just that. Nobody was talking to you when you were 12 years old about the conative piece and how important it is. Right. If anything, what we see is because people don't know about it so much they don't tap into it.

[00:11:13] They're not really even aware it's there. They aren't aware of what it is. They're aware it's there, but they get this advice going back to where we started. They'll get advice, whether it's a mentor, a parent, a teacher the honest, you guys read books, you listen to podcasts, and somebody says.

[00:11:29] Listen to me, I'll tell you how to do something, and you get this advice and it steers you in the wrong direction because it doesn't tap into this part of the mind. So let me give you another example of, from one of the other things we look at. It's how people deal with systems and structure, what we call the follow through action mode.

[00:11:49] So. On one end of the scale, I'll start at the other end. We is somebody who is open-ended, adaptable, flexible. You give them a system, maybe they'll go [00:12:00] through the system one time, but if they do it the second time, they are finding shortcuts. They're jumping to the end. Yes. This is you Kenny, you and I.

[00:12:08] Yeah, you and I are both at this end of this spectrum here. The other end are people who naturally systematize, they create processes. If something's chaotic they see the pattern, put it down so that it can be repeated and followed. So very different approaches. So much of the advice that we hear, though, is driven toward the second half of that.

[00:12:30] It's so, Kenny, for you and me, the advice of, finish what you start. Really? That's

[00:12:37] Kenny Lange: been beating the head with that.

[00:12:39] David Kolbe: right. Of course you have. And you know what? It's hard for you, and think back to when you're a kid, especially, it's hard for a kid who's like you and me to have the confidence to stand up. 'cause it sounds ridiculous.

[00:12:51] No I'm gonna start a bunch of stuff and I'm not gonna finish it. Nobody thinks that's productive. You know what it is. It's productive for people like you and me, and that's about [00:13:00] 20% of the population that's out on one end of that side of the continuum. But because they aren't given that advice, they're always told the opposite from people that they respect and look up to and wanna please you work and work and work against the grain, beating your head up against the wall.

[00:13:17] And it, because we don't measure can and can't, you can do that. And you do it and it's hard, but you get kudos. Oh, Kenny, great. Look what you did. but it was so much harder than it needed to be. You should have been given permission to start a bunch of stuff, experiment, toss three quarters of it aside, never finish it, and then focus in on the, one outta 20 brilliant ideas that you had.

[00:13:42] Who cares about the under 19?

[00:13:47] Kenny Lange: Yeah. Damn dude. I wasn't expecting to have that reaction to that, but that's my childhood all over. And continuing on. What's funny is I say funny it's even come up in [00:14:00] conversations with my older kids. I have, if you've listened for any p, anybody who's listened for a period of time knows I have five kids.

[00:14:07] I have a lot of children. My hair is gray rapidly, but with say like my oldest who's 15, which it's just such a blessing to live in a house with someone who knows everything. I don't even need Chad GPT. Um. But that's been something that he's commented on with me is like, yeah we've, we've asked you to do this and I like, have a great idea for us to do something or something in the house or a way to do stuff.

[00:14:31] And they're like, yeah, but then, give it a couple weeks, give it a couple days. We're not gonna do this. Or you said we were gonna do this and we're not following through. And I was like, ah. You just, you get left with this feeling that you're just consistently getting people's hopes up and then letting them down.

[00:14:47] And that, that, that has been a very tough through line um, in my life.

[00:14:52] David Kolbe: So here's the thing. Given what we know and that these things don't change over time, this part of the way you take [00:15:00] action, that doesn't mean you can't deal with kind of the consequences of how it plays itself out in your life and avoid. Pitfalls that might arise. So what you're describing is, okay, you don't want your kids to feel let down, and kids are different than grownups.

[00:15:18] And if you say to a kid, oh, we could do this. They might take that as we are going to do this.

[00:15:25] Your job as a parent then shifts a little bit. It's not about you changing yourself so that every time you have an idea and you mention it, everything gets finished. But you can learn to change your language and say. Listen, here's something that's a possibility or here's another idea. And then you can shift to other people the next part of the process of, Hey, I just came up with seven things we could do this weekend. We don't have time for all seven, or We don't have money for all seven, or whatever. But what's the one thing that you'd like to do?

[00:15:56] And then when your kid knows, and we're, and you're smart enough to know. [00:16:00] I can channel my efforts into the things that are my priority, the things that I care most about, and I'll finish those things. So I have four kids you and I are very similar in both the follow through, which is that open-ended, not systematic, doesn't finish everything.

[00:16:16] We start. Also, we're both initiating in quick start, which is how we deal, how everyone deals with risk, the unknown innovation. So both of both you and I. Experiment, take chances, do things differently you So, I was gonna get back to the kid and family stuff. My wife is an initiating follow through.

[00:16:37] So she creates the calendar, she has a plan, she has a system. She knows what's gonna happen all the time. But with four kids, the kids mess that up. Now, before we had kids. I would mess that up 'cause it was just me and her in that family dynamic and she'd get more frustrated with me once we had kids.

[00:16:56] I was smart enough to realize I just have to outlast a [00:17:00] 2-year-old in terms of not messing with the system. But then because I care about my wife, because I care about our family. When the system does break down, that's really when it's my responsibility because now I actually have a strength that's better suited to that situation than she does.

[00:17:16] She's always looking for putting it in a plan and a system of structure. Sometimes with kids that doesn't work. I. Those times are when it's really my responsibility to step up and go, all right, there is no plan. I'm just gonna invent something and might be a total disaster, by the way. But as Kenny and a lot of the people listening know sometimes those total disasters that are well intentioned.

[00:17:39] Turn out to be the core memories that you talk about for the next 50 years with your kids. It's not just the perfect things that go as planned, it's that, oh, do you remember we had that day? We were gonna do, we're gonna go have that picnic, but then this and that and if you find a way to laugh through it,

[00:17:56] Kenny Lange: Yeah.

[00:17:56] David Kolbe: it's probably better than the boring, mundane thing that [00:18:00] was planned all along.

[00:18:01] Of course, that's what you and I would say. 'cause that's what.

[00:18:05] Kenny Lange: Right. But I think those things happen in the business world too. And with some of the frameworks you and I know like having that, the, that, that visionary second in command relationship too can, is a bit like a business or organizational marriage if you will. And you made mention of something that I'd be curious on, on what you're finding.

[00:18:26] And then I do wanna make sure that we go over the, those four different modes and you give just, a run through for some more context for listeners that maybe aren't familiar with with Colby, but. You mentioned systems and I've leaned heavily into, especially technology 'cause I'm a nerd but systems or technology to try to mitigate or cap the downside of that low follow through.

[00:18:57] Which is the name of, if you're, if you're [00:19:00] listening, that is one of the, the four modes. And that, that has been a help. Is that what you're seeing? Not just for folks like you and I but for others who are the look for systems to, to help balance the scales no matter what side of those four modes they're on.

[00:19:17] David Kolbe: Yeah. In all of the four, and I guess lemme just finish all four now, 'cause we've already talked about three of them. FactFinder is the gathering and sharing information. Follow through is the systems and structure. Quick start, I only briefly covered that's the risk innovation. So I talked about the one side where you and I are that is.

[00:19:38] Kind of always experimenting. Brainstorming, yeah. Going. It's not an energy level. Sometimes people mix that up. You do see that sometimes, but it's more, you can be a kinda laid back, mellow, initiating, quick start. It's just you're always coming up with ideas, experimenting, taking chances. The other end of that spectrum is somebody who [00:20:00] stabilizes, who see what's.

[00:20:01] Sees what's been working and sticks with that. So they really find, they key in on the tried and true rather than. Always experimenting and doing something differently. The last of the four is what we call implementer and it's how we relate to the three dimensional world. So the name is a little confusing.

[00:20:22] It's not how we implement as in carry things out. That's more the follow through. It actually comes from the, this notion of using tools and implements. So on the one end of the scale is somebody who really. Physically builds and constructs. That's the way they take action. If you ask them a question, if they're free to be themselves, they will show you physically the answer.

[00:20:46] They will maybe literally build it. But they do, they take action in three dimensions. I keep doing this for them because with their hands, yeah, they are. The other end of the spectrum is kinda the opposite of that. It's somebody who [00:21:00] creates and does things with their imagination. So it's less tactile and more virtual in that sense.

[00:21:07] So those are those four action modes. In each of those four, we have a scale and we like to de-emphasize the numbers, but they're there because people like them. The scale is one to 10, but the thing is. One isn't better, 10 isn't better. It's just where you are on the, those continuum or continuums that I was talking about.

[00:21:25] So, when quick start at 10 and quick start means, that's really how you initiate action with that. Experimenting brainstorming kind of stuff. One, the other end of this scale is somebody who really stabilizes. So one to 10 is in all of them, but the key thing to remember is. It. There's no better or worse.

[00:21:46] It's just where are you on that scale?

[00:21:49] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Yeah. And there's a lot, as I was going through the report, there were some things I was learning that I had not previously known. 'cause I've, like I was telling you before we hit record, I've [00:22:00] been aware of the, colby a index for several years now. I've heard about it.

[00:22:05] I've had friends who've taken it. I swear I halluc, maybe I hallucinated and I was reading about it. I dreamed that I took it. But I had known about the numbers, I knew about the categories and kinda like what that new, what that meant. But then seeing like the different segments and some of the breakdowns and question, are you tired of these questions?

[00:22:24] I was like, sweet Jesus. Yes I am. There's a lot of depth to it. So, if you're already thinking about it, like you can come finish this episode, but then go take the kolby kolby a assessment. But I was asking about the systems for compensation. Is that something that you're, y'all are seeing from clients and

[00:22:43] David Kolbe: Yeah. And we recommend it. For people like you and me who are at that you were talking about systems, technology is a great way to get around it. You don't have to create your own systems. There are all kinds of companies that are doing it for you. It's so much easier than it used to be. If you just think about [00:23:00] keeping a calendar and sharing it with people like you used to be able to keep it pencil and paper.

[00:23:04] You had to carry your organizer with you 24 7. People who were old enough, remember those? Physical things that they carried around, but sharing it was sure, a pain in the neck. And now all that's easier. You don't, again, you don't have to create those systems. And and same thing with reminders.

[00:23:22] You and I are the kind of people where, oh, we'd put it in our calendar. That doesn't mean we'd show up. But now you carry your phone with you and it's not just on the calendar, but it. Pings you 15 minutes beforehand and you're like, oh yeah I better get to my office and sit down and turn the zoom on.

[00:23:43] Yeah. So those things are great there, there are lots of ways to deal with, but let me get so that the technology is amazing,

[00:23:51] But I think most importantly is understanding other people in the world are different than you. So we all have our own strengths. Number one is [00:24:00] understand our strengths.

[00:24:01] Know thyself. Again, ancient wisdom, but the other part is work with other people. I. You are not an island unto yourself. Yes, you need to know who you are and how you operate best, but you will do more good in the world when you connect and collaborate with other people and not just the ones who are just like you.

[00:24:21] So this could go in a very philosophical direction. I'll stick with Kolby and the conative part of you. But here's what we see over and over again when you have teams of people that all look alike. Conatively speaking, they're not very effective teams. So let's just take one of the action modes. Let's take fact finder.

[00:24:42] So this is the gathering and sharing information. If you have a room full of people like me that ask questions, get information, dig deeper, more detail, if you think math, it's like go out to another decimal point of precision and another, and analyze risks and. I've already gone on so long.

[00:24:59] That's what [00:25:00] happens. That team, that group of people focuses on all that stuff and they don't really get much done. They get a lot of research and information gathering, but they don't get done what they were assigned to do. The task and the problem is because they're all alike, they often don't realize it or they realize it, but they don't know how to get out of that cycle because it's so natural to all those people. When you insert one where preferably two people, depending on how big the group is, but it just, when you insert people who are different, who have the opposite instinctive take on it, they will naturally raise their hand or butt in and say, Hey guys, yeah, I know enough. We got enough information. We just need to move forward now.

[00:25:43] And if we make a mistake, we'll learn from it, get more information. But

[00:25:47] Kenny Lange: Right,

[00:25:48] David Kolbe: let's push outta that.

[00:25:50] Kenny Lange: right. Because that every strength has that that, that sort of two-edged sword. I dunno what the right word is. It just left my brain. I need more Dr. Pepper. But basically, any [00:26:00] strength if overused or not, connected to other strengths. Was it I heard someone say is that a well-rounded teams will be well-rounded leaders any day of the week.

[00:26:10] That's what I feel like I hear you saying, is if we understand how we can build these components in to, to leverage these instinctive strengths these natural tendencies of doing things. And one thing that is curious to me is, a lot of assessments are focused on the other. Parts of you, right?

[00:26:32] Like the feelings, like EQ assessments, those are great. Those are good. Some are personality I would put them in more a, like a personality typology or a bucket which could get really gray and murky. And some are, like you said, the iq, the. Why action for you other than maybe it wasn't studied as much.

[00:26:52] And how should people be blending the insight from say an assessment like Colby? [00:27:00] With these others. 'cause kinda like we were talking about is at all of these different profiles and assessments and tools that we could nerd out about. They all sort of show shape and size and color and shading of a human.

[00:27:14] I don't think that there's one assessment to rule them all.

[00:27:18] David Kolbe: agree.

[00:27:19] Kenny Lange: how, why action why understand the bias towards action and doing.

[00:27:25] David Kolbe: The first and most straightforward answer to your question is you already answered it. It was because nobody else had really done it. So a little bit of the history, my mom, Kathy Kolby, is the one who actually developed the test. As your intro said I, I helped come up with the scoring algorithm, but she really figured out what the heck is this thing I'm, I've.

[00:27:45] Tapped into, and I'm trying to measure and assess and a little further back in the history. Some of your listeners and watchers, viewers may know the Wonderlic personnel test. Have you, you're looking like maybe you've heard of that.

[00:27:59] Kenny Lange: I've heard of it, [00:28:00] but I, it is not coming to mind, but I feel like I've heard that spoken about.

[00:28:03] David Kolbe: Yeah, it's a short form intelligence test basically that was developed by my grandfather, Eldon Wonderlich. Most people who hear bit these days, it's because the NFL draft combine used it for years and years. So that's where it's gotten publicity. But so that's on the cognitive side. So my grandfather had developed that and my mom would talk to him and say, yeah, but we all know smart people.

[00:28:27] And then you add in the affective and like kinda well-meaning good values and committed people. They're smart, they're committed values alignment, and yet there's something missing sometimes. Or gosh, they were great at one job and now they got promoted and now they're not so good and it's not 'cause they aren't smart 'cause they're still smart.

[00:28:46] So the Peter principle of, oh, you, you promote somebody beyond their competence. Sometimes that's true, that now they just aren't smart enough. But they're people who, they're plenty smart, but the what changed was the demands that their [00:29:00] job placed on them in terms of the way they take action. So that's what my mom was looking at, is what's this other part of the mind?

[00:29:08] And she did the research and figured out I'm not the first person to. Identify that there is this part of the human mind, but she really was the first person to come up with an assessment to measure and isolate it.

[00:29:21] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. A bit. You mentioned, the Peter principle the easiest one for me and maybe it's just because of my background in sales is that top sales leader gets promoted to sales manager. And suddenly you don't end up with a team full of top sales leaders. And is that kind of speak into the research your mom and others now, yourself included are continuing to study.

[00:29:48] 'cause even when I took the assessment, there were some questions at the end. I was like, oh, dear God, they're still studying this. Which is great. I love that. Reliability and validity, right? We gotta have it. But it wasn't that person [00:30:00] needed to understand sales a anymore or less, or really differently or how they felt about the company, or felt about the clients.

[00:30:08] It was the things they were being asked to do were substantively different as a manager as opposed to an individual a, a high performing individual contributor.

[00:30:17] David Kolbe: Yeah. Yeah. The stereotype with that job would be, oh, you take somebody who is a risk taking deal making closer, and you turn them into an somebody who's all about process and systems and, and data uh, and keeping track of it, being on top of it, and then, riding hurt on other people.

[00:30:37] Those are different. It's a different way of taking action. Again, it's not that they aren't smart enough. They know the sales process, they know the products, they understand people, but it's just not the sweet spot for them. But I also wanna get back, you asked, and I didn't really answer this part.

[00:30:53] Basically how you blend these three 'cause. And you, part of your preface to it was you don't [00:31:00] believe there's one assessment, and I totally agree. There's not one assessment that is just, this is what you need to know about human beings. So if just, if you take the, these three parts of the mind and keep in mind that even leaves out a lot of stuff.

[00:31:14] Spirituality that is probably outside of those three parts of the Mind pro maybe touches on the affect 'cause it is connected to values. But also it leaves out the physical part of our bodies, our strength and coordination and those kinds of things. But just the three parts of the mind, you do need to blend all of them together.

[00:31:32] So I think at a top level way to think about it is. Let me apply it too. If I'm thinking about what career should I embark on? You need to have an understanding of what you're smart in. If you just aren't good at math, maybe engineering is not the right place to go. If you're, you have great language skills, but not great math skills, then you know, maybe be a lawyer or a writer or a communications person with the that, so that's the [00:32:00] cognitive side.

[00:32:00] Then there's also the a effect of what do you. What are your values? What are your interests? If you were really fascinated by something like, maybe that's a direction to go also because it's your work is going to be more interesting to you, you'll be able to stick with it more. And little side note, I'm not a huge follow your passion person.

[00:32:21] I think that's way overdone. I'm not saying, but I say don't ignore your passion. Go towards it. But since I already started with the cognitive piece, if you just go towards your, your passion and you ignore the fact that cognitively you're not very good at it, that's not a good fit either. So those two need to fit together.

[00:32:39] But then the last part, the way you take action, so don't now most. Careers are broad enough that there are different ways to attack it. So I'm actually a lawyer. I haven't been practicing for a long time, but there are different ways to be a successful lawyer. It's not just the stereotype of someone who [00:33:00] asks lots of questions, gathers and shares information.

[00:33:03] Some of 'em are lower on that end of the, on the fact finder. They have other strengths and that's fine. But anyway, you put all those three together to find what works for you in a way that works for you. And I think that last part for us is the key.

[00:33:17] Kenny Lange: I really like that. It makes me think of, are we even talking about leadership if we don't talk about a Venn diagram or a two by two matrix? But really like that intersection of those three. 'cause if you only have two outta the three, like something, you're gonna miss a piece and it just won't align.

[00:33:35] The other thing I love the, what you said, that I. Don't ignore your passion, but don't, like, maybe don't put it in the driver's seat. I would tell people like, you need to hold that with a with sort of an open hand as opposed to a closed hand. 'cause what I thought I would end up doing is not what I'm doing today.

[00:33:51] But all of the things as I look back would indicate this would've been a great. Outcome [00:34:00] to pursue, but I needed to bounce to some different things and figure stuff out to where I could find that harmony between those three. And I think also my my results give scientific proof that I am probably unemployable.

[00:34:16] So, I really I like how you're talking about blending this, the thought that comes to mind and in part because of the work I do in helping clients build org charts and descriptions and understand outcomes. And we talked about I've done some work with six types of working genius with some clients.

[00:34:33] Trying to figure out like who do we promote and who do we hire for this and where do we go here? It would seem to me going back to say our sales leader manager example that person just should probably never be made manager because it would put them in a position to have to act in a way that was, that would drain them.

[00:34:55] Far too quickly, it would not feel effortless and efficient as you mentioned [00:35:00] before. But everybody, and maybe this is just a Western thought or maybe a US thought of like, well, I gotta climb, I gotta, what's the next promotion? What's the next level? What's the next layer? Like, I gotta get into that.

[00:35:12] David Kolbe: Yep.

[00:35:13] Kenny Lange: But it would seem what you're saying flies in the face of some of that. And I don't know if there's an easy answer. I think good answers Ra rarely are easy. What if I'm just meant to be the world's most dis, greatest sales person ever and never manage, even though that would on a resume seem more prestigious.

[00:35:38] David Kolbe: Yeah, it, and it's interesting, with that, again, as the example salesperson those people who work in especially larger companies, know who makes more money. The best salesperson makes a lot more money than the best sales manager at almost every organization. So with that example, even though you're right, if you look at an org chart, oh, this [00:36:00] person, the sales manager is the boss of those salespeople, but they don't make as much money.

[00:36:06] So there's less pressure in that role, but we see it, you're right. We see it over and over again. This notion that. You maybe to tap into what you were talking about before. Oh well, I have to grow in my career and that always means a step up a ladder. I don't think that the ladder is the best way to think of it.

[00:36:24] The best way to think of it is how can I kinda. Be most fulfilled, add most to the world or this company? What's the role where I get to do that? And since, we're talking to people more in this podcast than we're talking to, organizations, it's our jobs as ourselves to figure out with our lives.

[00:36:45] And our lives are so much more broad than just our nine to five work life or, if you're an entrepreneur, you're six to 6:00 AM to 9:00 PM work life. But

[00:36:55] Kenny Lange: Five to nine.

[00:36:56] David Kolbe: yeah it's more than that. So you've gotta figure out what do [00:37:00] I want with all of that time and with all the things that I can do and how do I do the most with that?

[00:37:06] So, I've written a book with Amy Brewski, who's the president of the company and, co-author. And we collaborate on lots of things called Do More, more Naturally. And it's all about figuring out and what we're trying to help people understand by tapping into these instinctive strengths, you can get more accomplished using sometimes even less energy than before because you're doing it in a way that's natural.

[00:37:30] You're getting into that flow state. And then when you. When you do it that way, you end up with more energy. You know, As I said, if you use less, you've got energy left over. Even if you're accomplishing the same thing, let's just say at work you're accomplishing the same amount, but you're doing it more efficiently, so you've got more energy left to do other things in your life.

[00:37:51] Now you can plow that again. If you're an entrepreneur, sometimes that means I'm plowing that back into my startup phase business. If that's not your role, then you can. [00:38:00] Channel it into your faith community, into your family, into all kinds of different things.

[00:38:07] Kenny Lange: That's really good. Uh, And we de we certainly will link up um, to, to the book um, in the show notes. So if anybody's um, interested in, in purchasing that, which I recommend it, I know I'm gonna add that to the book, although my wife will probably give me a severe eye roll when she sees that I've bought yet another book and I'm like, no it's cool.

[00:38:26] I could do it on Audible and then she doesn't see it.

[00:38:28] David Kolbe: I did the audible version, so you'll have to listen to me if you do Audible.

[00:38:32] Kenny Lange: I am all right with that. Yeah, I would just you mentioned you're a lawyer. It made me think, I'd tell people I've watched all nine seasons of suits, so I'm pretty much a lawyer.

[00:38:42] David Kolbe: Oh, don't even get me started.

[00:38:43] Kenny Lange: I'm gonna add that on a little Kenny Lang, Esquire.

[00:38:47] David Kolbe: Okay. I'm just I can't help myself, so I watched lots of suits. I don't know that I've seen all of it. It's entertaining. I get it, but it just, it drives me nuts. So, so often, like the entertainment for a lot of [00:39:00] lawyers, and I've talked to other lawyer friends, you can't get past how outlandish some of the legal things are that they just pass off as like, this appears to be how legal stuff goes.

[00:39:11] Like, no, it really doesn't go that way,

[00:39:14] Kenny Lange: It is like doctors watching Grey's Anatomy. Although one of my favorite shows scrubs I have been told is probably one of the medically and environmentally most accurate. My brother-in-law's an ER physician. He actually got one of the actors on that, spoke at his did a, like a short video for their class graduation.

[00:39:34] David Kolbe: that's fine.

[00:39:35] Kenny Lange: going at the time. But yeah, so that's fine. But I'll I'll pull that

[00:39:39] David Kolbe: Okay.

[00:39:39] Kenny Lange: I don't wanna be held in contempt of Kolby. How about that? So I, there's probably a lot more I want to dive into this and maybe even just selfishly get more insights into my own results.

[00:39:52] But it. In thinking through this, somebody's probably has a lot of questions but I think you've given 'em a lot of [00:40:00] questions to sit with because I think it's a, it's deceptively simple what you just laid out in terms of you've gotta get honest. And I would say internally get aligned.

[00:40:12] Like your brain, your cognition the effective and the cognitive. I'm gonna say it right and not stumble over it, but it's really getting those three aligned for yourself and then saying, given this. What do I want to do in the world? And defining what you want and then finding jobs or companies and opportunities and things that are aligned for you.

[00:40:36] At, by way of example. As you were saying that it clarified something for me, which is towards the end of last year business was growing. I was getting busier. And obviously with that that lower follow through, I've used and leveraged tech as much as possibly can. And then there's always room for improvement and new advances.

[00:40:55] But I invested in a part-time executive assistant. [00:41:00] Some of that had to do with the fact that like my wife was having brain surgery and there was a bunch of other stuff and I was like, I'm gonna be covered up. I'm already terrible at following through on things I said I was gonna do. I was like, I need a little extra help.

[00:41:13] But I didn't realize and she, until she said this and then I experienced working with her for a couple months, she said, look, there's things that would take you hours that would probably take me minutes. And part of me wanted to like, Hey, now what are you saying? Like, I'm pretty awesome. I don't know if you know this.

[00:41:32] But then she did, she started getting on stuff and then I was like, oh, not only did I feel like I had more time to sit with some of the projects and stuff flying at me, things that only I could do, which is, a common line that's heard in leadership and organization building, but.

[00:41:49] What I didn't count on was the mental, emotional lightness or capacity to happen. I was just looking at the connive, [00:42:00] just the sheer number of things to get done before I crash and burn. At the end of the day that she would take off of me, I actually felt a little lighter, a little happier, and then now I'm turning and I'm going actually this year.

[00:42:15] I with, I want to be able to have more capacity both time and emotional, mental for my kids. I've got two that are about to be in high school. I got two in middle school and I got a 3-year-old. Like, especially with those older ones, I'm like, look, my time's running out. I only have a few more years and I, I.

[00:42:34] Don't want their best memory to be dad shutting the office door. Right. So you've really put a lot of language to that experience of I started offloading some of the things that really drained me that I was doing, that they also drained the effective and cognitive side of me. And now feeling that coming back.

[00:42:55] I'm like, she could, I hope she doesn't listen to this, but she could probably charge [00:43:00] me like three x and I would still go no. That's been worth it for the level of freedom and energy I have felt towards new work of creating and writing and compiling and doing some of those things. So you've really given me some helpful language and I hope and would be willing to bet you given some other listeners language for that.

[00:43:22] If someone is listening and says, yeah, that this is great. I love this idea, this concept, you've really like, you've poked on something that I haven't been able to figure out. What's something that they could do in the next 24 hours, little to no money to take that first baby step towards understanding their instinctive strengths and being able to do more and more naturally.

[00:43:45] David Kolbe: Sure. So I'll give three things quickly. One, we mentioned the book um, you know, especially the uh, the digital versions are not expensive, so you can do that, whether it's Audible or on a Kindle. You can take your Kolbe a [00:44:00] index that is 55 point dollars on kby.com, KOLB e.com, but for no money. What I would really encourage people to do is just to get in a quiet place and to think back those times when I've really felt like in that flow state, getting things done.

[00:44:17] You talked about energy and you talked about when you, before you had the executive assistant and you would be burnt out. You would just work work, and you'd crash at the end of the day.

[00:44:26] But there are those times when you're doing something and you have the freedom to do it your own way, where you can keep going.

[00:44:32] It gets to eight o'clock at night and you frankly don't wanna stop, and you have the energy to keep going when you're in those times, and you can think back in the past when you've had that freedom to work like that, what has it felt like? What have you been doing? What's the natural way that you do things?

[00:44:48] So even if you don't take your Colby Index or read the book, you can get to a lot of what we've been talking about and have a closer sense of who you are, and then you get that and you understand that. [00:45:00] Do more of that. That's the bottom line to it is whatever that thing is, and however you figure it out for yourself, then do more of that and less of all the other stuff.

[00:45:09] And I'd really also encourage people, your story about the executive assistant. It's not always somebody you pay, but there are people out there who love doing and are great at doing the things that you don't do well. And yeah, they'll do in minutes what takes you hours, and you're not punishing them by having them do it.

[00:45:27] You're actually giving them the freedom to use their God-given abilities.

[00:45:31] Kenny Lange: Absolutely that, that's great. And those are some amazing options. So go get the book, take the assessment or just get alone or go to a coffee shop, something and and get honest with yourself about the, those questions. David, if people wanna know more about you, about your work or anything else what's the best way to connect with you?

[00:45:53] Find you and stay up to date?

[00:45:55] David Kolbe: Go to the company website, kolby.com. You can find us there. My [00:46:00] email is d kolby@kolby.com if people wanna get in touch with me that way.

[00:46:04] Kenny Lange: Excellent. And we also, we have LinkedIn and some of the other social accounts where I'm, I'm sure you've got a great team putting out content that they can get little nuggets of, of insights and reshare it and feel like, oh gosh, man, I'm now the smartest of all my friends. That's what I, that's why I like resharing stuff.

[00:46:23] Makes me look smarter. David, thank you so much for your time. I would love to have you back in, in the future. And maybe we'll dive in deeper to some of these topics. 'cause I think that there's a lot more here to be understood and to glean from. For all of you listeners, thank you so much for spending a little bit of your time today with me and David.

[00:46:41] We could have had a great time, even if we never recorded this. And we probably would've gotten into a lot of fun, probably a little bit of trouble. But since you listened in, please like rate, review, subscribe if this helped you. There are others just like you who are looking for these sort of conversations and content.

[00:46:57] And when you give that little bit of [00:47:00] engagement that cost you nothing, it may mean the world to somebody who could stumble upon this and help them on their leadership journey. But until next time, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead.