How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

HLT Chris Barnes Full Interview
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[00:00:00] Chris Barnes: you've got people in charge, that are still individual contributors. They may have the title, but they're still the one jumping in, rolling up their sleeves, getting into everything. Not passing the baton because when they do pass the baton, they haven't developed another person yet because they haven't been developed. And then you can't really give or put all of this on the next person because then they fail. And then what do we do? We take that back, right? And so now we're the one sitting here with 60 hour weeks.​

[00:00:28] Marker
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[00:00:33] Kenny Lange: Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast, a show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host Kenny Lang, and with me today is the Chris Barnes. He's a fractional integrator and an executive coach, a twofer with wolf's edge integrators.

[00:00:51] He's a leadership development practitioner, executive coach, dedicated to empowering CEOs and executive teams to achieve peak performance. He's helping them climb [00:01:00] mountains. Figuratively with real world experience as a CIO and A COO, and now a fractional integrator and COO and Vistage chair. This just he does everything.

[00:01:11] Chris specializes in fostering transformative growth and strategic. Clarity, passionate about personal and professional development. I can attest to that. He balances life through family fitness mindfulness, which he may take a mindfulness break during this conversation and community involvement.

[00:01:29] Welcome to the show, Chris.

[00:01:31] Chris Barnes: Wow, Kenny, thanks for having me. It's a heck of an introduction. I don't know if I can even follow that up with a great appearance, but I hope so.

[00:01:39] Kenny Lange: I believe you. I mean, We could just cut the episode right there and just thanks so much for, I'm glad I could be here and we'll just, we'll put some pictures. We could now that we have your face, we could just make an AI of you saying

[00:01:52] Chris Barnes: fake. There we go.

[00:01:54] Kenny Lange: Deep, fake. Tell me, Chris, what is on your mind?

[00:01:59] Chris Barnes: You [00:02:00] really just mentioned it, right? That's the whole purpose of this podcast. It's leadership, but maybe not from the traditional way of thinking about leadership, cracking a whip or all the sorts of things that are out there.

[00:02:13] Kenny Lange: Yeah. Has there been something specific within the realm of leadership? I know in our initial conversation, like we, we totally nerded out over assessments and models and all these different things. But is there a particular aspect that's been capturing your attention lately?

[00:02:30] Chris Barnes: I think it's just this mindset and focus on symptoms and problems. Right? And, And I know historically we've said I'm the problem solver. I solve problems. I come in, that's how I lead. But we look at everything like it's a problem. And we look at people like they're a problem to be fixed. And really when you look across the spectrum of what pick a post.

[00:02:52] It doesn't matter what post pick any post you want, it's focused on a symptom of a lack of leadership [00:03:00] development.

[00:03:03] Kenny Lange: Wow. So you think most of the problems can be boiled down to like rooted in leadership, like either poor or lack of leadership, is that what you're saying

[00:03:14] Chris Barnes: Yeah, I actually, I, I try when I'm being conscious of it, I try not to even use the terms poor and good, even though that may slip outta my mouth in this conversation. Because what it's, what I'm really focused on is developed versus undeveloped, right?

[00:03:30] Kenny Lange: I gotcha.

[00:03:31] Chris Barnes: think we get, go ahead.

[00:03:34] Kenny Lange: no, I was gonna say, do you see it on a spectrum like developed to un to developed, and it's a never ending spectrum.

[00:03:41] Chris Barnes: I subscribe to the Leadership Circle. It's one of the most comprehensive frameworks that I've seen on the topic. And they use a circle intentionally because, when you think about a spectrum going from left to right.

[00:03:54] It's like you're leaving one and going to the other and, oh, I'm too far over here, so I may need to go over here. The [00:04:00] whole reason they use that circle is when you look at it, the bottom half is just kinda where we are. Maybe when we hit that first managerial spot, right? The what got you here won't get you there type thought.

[00:04:13] And so these are still strengths that are there. These are still things that we needed to get to that point. Now we've stunted our growth has stunted. In fact their data says 75% of adults are stuck right there. So when you add that, add to that, the idea of leadership, whether you're talking about government or an organization, 75% of the adults are stuck in that reactive mode, right?

[00:04:40] And they say, this is just me. This is how I am.

[00:04:44] Kenny Lange: Which I maintain is the, just the laziest excuse to act however you want. I'm just being me. I'm doing me. Like, what? No, that's dumb. You can always be better. So, which I really like that [00:05:00] the, they're stuck in reactionary mode as opposed to maybe being more responsive or thoughtfully proactive.

[00:05:06] Towards making progress. What you were talking about makes me think of I think the book, I know the author not personally, Carol Dweck, about the growth growth mindset. So the sounds like 75% are stuck in that fixed mindset and only 25 are making it to the growth mindset. Um, Is that fair to say?

[00:05:29] Chris Barnes: So going back to her work, I think one of the pieces I liked about her work is she's like, we all have a fixed mindset about something, right? And so it's not that somebody is completely fixed versus growth mindset, but in this aspect, it's more along the lines of like they don't have the tools to move to the next level that they need to as a leader.

[00:05:53] So it maybe some better words that I like for that are reaction I. Reactive versus [00:06:00] conscious, right? So, so this is my default behavior. It's unconscious. It's just how I show up. I've learned how to show up this way. I've needed to show up this way, whatever it's been throughout my life and I've never interacted with somebody in a way that has shined a light on the fact that I need to now be a lot more conscious in how I show up as a leader.

[00:06:24] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. That sleepwalking, which I subscribe to simply because of like my exposure to the Enneagram, deals a lot with like, we adopt personalities and we become on autopilot until usually some sort of significant life event. Or maybe a series of them. We get presented with the opportunity to start to build a different muscle and say, oh, maybe this has gotten me here, but like you were saying, won't get me to that next place.

[00:06:53] And I also definitely agree on the, like we're fixed in some ways growth in another. [00:07:00] What in your research and your experience, what helps people get to a growth mindset in a, in an area where maybe they've previously been fixed and keep them there? They don't have to have the pedal to the floor, but you could be, 1% better every day or something like that. So how do we start thinking about getting outta this fixed mindset and what really is keeping people there?

[00:07:30] Chris Barnes: That's a very big question. Because we're talking

[00:07:33] Kenny Lange: solve everything in the

[00:07:34] Chris Barnes: Yeah,

[00:07:34] Kenny Lange: today, right now.

[00:07:36] Chris Barnes: You're talking about

[00:07:37] Kenny Lange: the last podcast ever.

[00:07:38] Chris Barnes: human behavior and changing it and. doesn't matter how good of a coach you are or parent or anything else, you wanna plug in there, you can't change somebody else, right? So, so if we want to see change, we draw a circle around ourselves and we change everything within that circle. The problem is when you're talking [00:08:00] about an organization or an or a government, whatever, right? You're dealing with other people and if they don't wanna see it, you can help them see it. You can shine, you can put that mirror up for them. But then it's like, okay so what?

[00:08:15] You go into many organizations, they go through the process of doing a 360. People see the results of that 360, and they see what words were said about them. They look at the positive, then they look at the perceived negative, or maybe it really is pretty negative. And that's where they dwell, right? And so for some people that tension and discomfort turns into I've gotta improve. I want to improve. But for a lot of people, going back to the point you made, it's this is just who I am.

[00:08:48] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Do you think it's an open just an openness to examine yourself, receive feedback or to look in the mirror?

[00:08:56] Chris Barnes: Yeah.

[00:08:57] Kenny Lange: could help move people off of that. 'cause I agree with you. You [00:09:00] can't change anybody. Even though like there's still some times I'm still trying. I'm like, if you would just listen to me and do what I tell you, your life would be so much better.

[00:09:09] Chris Barnes: so I hope that is not with your wife, that you do that.

[00:09:14] Kenny Lange: no, I gave up on that with her a long time ago. She's her own creature. It could be my kids. Which are getting up into the teenage years. And then of course I'm the dumbest human who ever walked the planet, but with them, but it might even be clients or friends, like, and it's not coming from a malicious place or anything, but I do think it creates that expectation.

[00:09:40] That and a gap in between your expectation and reality and become frustrated with trying to change something. You can't. But do you think that there can be inciting incidences that allow somebody or trigger somebody out of that sort of like, sleep? I'm starting to think of the Matrix 'cause I really am a nerd.

[00:09:58] So let's take it all the way [00:10:00] back to 1999.

[00:10:01] Chris Barnes: I'm glad you used that, that analogy actually, and I'll tell you why in a second.

[00:10:06] Kenny Lange: But you know, you, You start, you get, you're getting unplugged. You start looking around like, what has to happen for someone to be in the space to reconsider and even hear feedback like on a 360 where they see here's the negative, here's the positive. 'cause I find that people who aren't open to the negative, generally, they don't even really accept the positive.

[00:10:31] Chris Barnes: You

[00:10:31] Kenny Lange: They may like it, it may sound good for a hot second, but it doesn't, none of it sticks to the landing in a bad way. Not like I'm confident in who I am. It's a, I'm ignorant and I'd like to stay that way. Please. Like, I know this isn't chicken. My brain is telling me this is chicken. I'm going to eat it Anyway, now we're getting into deep cuts of the matrix, so, but take it away.

[00:10:56] I was about to call you Neo, but

[00:10:59] Chris Barnes: So this is [00:11:00] not, I this is not meant to be a discussion about the LCP, but it is a 360 and that's why I like it. So if you ever have time to look into it they've taken all the leadership materials that they could find going back 70 years, then thoroughly tested, and it gives you quantitative.

[00:11:18] Data, like how you're showing up as a leader and what that means to your effectiveness to, for the business. And so most of the time you're in these organizations and you're doing three sixties with the leaders of the organization. If you talk to them about leadership effectiveness, this, the, this is what you're affecting right now with regard to the business.

[00:11:38] That's one way to get people's attention, right? It's not just another assessment that we brought up and all of those things, but the beauty of it is you have those words on there, right? The subjective information that's there from your reviewers, but then you've got a diagram that shows you. Based on the [00:12:00] number of people you had. And then it breaks it down by group. This is where you, how you show up as a leader in your effectiveness. And because of this, either your organization's gonna thrive or you're actually gonna go backwards as an organization. 'cause sometimes companies succeed in spite of their leaders, right? We see it all the time.

[00:12:23] Kenny Lange: Yeah, those are the most baffling.

[00:12:25] Chris Barnes: when we're talking about in the business context, the fact that, 70 plus percent of change or strategic plan rollout fails, and we're spending a ton of money on consultants and strategic planners and this and that, but why doesn't it, why don't we have a better success percentage?

[00:12:50] Kenny Lange: So. From that perspective then ch let me maybe challenge what you said initially about the leadership piece. And I'd be curious your thoughts [00:13:00] is that, sounds like a change management problem. Is that people, you and I are coaches and so we're always like in, we're in the business of change.

[00:13:10] And so part of our job is not just ask great questions, be well-informed, listen, all those things, the skillset. But one of the skills is like helping people navigate change management with themselves or their organization. So then is that effectiveness really down to whether or not a leader or a person in a position of authority can manage change versus actually developing themselves as leaders?

[00:13:35] Chris Barnes: So it's both. Ann, change management is a component. So when you're looking at the competencies that they use that make up extraordinary leaders in that creative top half, there's 18 different ones up there. So, so change is one piece of it. And even if you look at a change management discipline like Prosci and Acar that's one

[00:13:57] Of the biggest ones out there most heavily [00:14:00] researched, right?

[00:14:01] They tell you the top two people responsible for successful change management.

[00:14:08] At the head of the organization who's gonna deliver the message about the change to the whole organization. The second person is that employee's. Immediate supervisor or manager.

[00:14:21] Kenny Lange: So it really, it's, it could skip several people

[00:14:26] Chris Barnes: Yeah. You have to have a leadership system within the organization that starts at where it's supposed to because everyone takes their cue from the person at the top. But it has to go through your executive leadership team and all the way down, however many levels necessary such that, the person who answers the phone, that reports to the director of admin or whatever they call them, is also talking to a leader that knows how to help them navigate the change that's being implemented.

[00:14:59] Kenny Lange: [00:15:00] Gotcha. Because you may have the catalyst that head person, CEO, executive director, whoever, this is what's about to happen. Here's where we are, or here's where we've been, here's where we are, here's where we're going. Let me walk you through that, but that immediate manager, immediate supervisor, is the person who's gonna help make those incremental changes day after day.

[00:15:21] Chris Barnes: Yeah.

[00:15:21] Kenny Lange: So like, get it started, keep it going. Now we may have some milestones along the

[00:15:26] Chris Barnes: Yeah. And then and the most important question that, that head of the organization ask answers is why are we doing this? Why now? So they're gonna make that case. And then as you get through down into the organization, you're gonna, they're gonna be a answering different questions, right?

[00:15:42] They're gonna answer what's in it for me? That's what my manager's gonna answer for me.

[00:15:47] Kenny Lange: Yeah.

[00:15:48] Chris Barnes: And then training and support, all of that sort of stuff takes place before change is successfully implemented and sustained.

[00:15:57] Kenny Lange: Gotcha. Now, within [00:16:00] that I'd imagine that individual contributor. How much of the success comes down to their maybe level of self-awareness their willingness to lean in to not just do something differently as part of the change, but show up almost be different. Whether that's magnifying good qualities and minimizing negative ones.

[00:16:25] How does that play a role in the overarching change? And is that sometimes where people go, yep, this is gonna push me to change too much. I went off the

[00:16:35] Chris Barnes: They might.

[00:16:36] Kenny Lange: Because any big change usually leads with some includes some

[00:16:40] Chris Barnes: Yeah. And they might, right? I had one mentor tell me, that's done massive change before. He is like, look, you generally have three types of people. You have the people in their canoes that are rowing the opposite direction from you. You have the people in their canoes, but they don't have their oars in the water.

[00:16:58] They're waiting to see which way [00:17:00] you know who's gonna win this battle. And then you have the people that are rowing alongside you. And your job as a leader is to get as many people as you can, rowing alongside you, figure out the people that are rowing against you and help them onto their next thing, whatever that is.

[00:17:18] Maybe it's a change within the organization, but maybe it's a change out of the organization. And so even for the individual contributor that you're talking about I still put. The onus of this on the leaders of the organization at all levels. So if you are, if your responsibility is that you have a person reporting to you, then you should be developed, not trained.

[00:17:43] And I, and you know that, I think that's one of the,

[00:17:46] Kenny Lange: Contrast

[00:17:47] Chris Barnes: yeah, one of the, one of the biggest. Issues that we see is we have all kinds of leadership training, right? Let's do this one day seminar. Let's do, heck, even if it's a week, whatever, they [00:18:00] spend all this money on it. And if you think about training, one of the best analogies I had for it is think about it like a cup, right?

[00:18:09] You've got a cup, it can hold so much. So you start on day one, you're on the sales team. I'm gonna give you the sales playbook. I'm gonna train you on how we do sales here. I'm gonna fill up your cup.

[00:18:20] Development is where I take that cup and we're gonna stretch and we're gonna pull it and it's just gonna turn into a different shape because the initial capacity you had needs to be bigger for you to do what we need you to do and be who we need you to be.

[00:18:39] Kenny Lange: Wow. I have never thought of it that way. So, so if we're increasing we're almost and I don't hear you saying. Training's dumb. Don't do training, do development, right? Like you need training, but it seems like you would need to develop, the more you develop a person, the more training you can conduct.

[00:18:58] 'cause the more you could pour into [00:19:00] the cup which turns into a bucket or something like that, right as you stretch it and you take it out. And that's where like a larger collection of skills. Like if you if you listen to anything from Alex or Moey, he just talks about, he goes, it all comes down to skill development.

[00:19:14] Everything's a skill I.

[00:19:15] Chris Barnes: Yeah.

[00:19:16] Kenny Lange: Spend time acquiring skills. 'cause typically they're non-perishable. No one can take 'em from you. Like you just can keep building on it, but you have to be developed in order to pour more skills into your cup, right?

[00:19:31] Chris Barnes: I'd say yes and to that, because there's skills, but skills are just one component of that. So like I love the idea of skill stacking. I've made a career out of it. But when we're talking about development, we're also talking about the inner game. I. That interoperating system that we are working from, because there are a lot of people with plenty of great skills, right?

[00:19:54] They worked at Enron,

[00:19:54] Kenny Lange: yeah, man. The [00:20:00] late nineties are really I feel like that there needs to be some sort of title about the late nineties for this podcast

[00:20:06] Chris Barnes: We've probably, we've got stuff now even going on, right? Like, people are very skillful. They've learned these skills, but. They haven't addressed that inner game that drives them and serves as the lens that they're functioning through. And so we bring people in these positions. I what's the book?

[00:20:26] The Peter Principle Right?

[00:20:28] Gets a lot of talk and it's a it's a great book and it says, and essentially it's like you get promoted to your high, your next level or highest level of incompetence. As though it's just a skills thing there. But the reality is the higher up you go in an organization, the more that inner game really matters.

[00:20:48] Because we, I've worked with enough leaders. These are, some of these have been partners or whatever, an organizations where they're still doing some of the tasks they would do as an individual contributor, just because they [00:21:00] can't let it go.

[00:21:02] And what message

[00:21:03] Kenny Lange: know at least I'm good at this. I might I feel uncertain here and a lack of confidence in this new thing I got promoted to, but I'm very confident in doing this minor thing, which shouldn't even be on my

[00:21:13] Chris Barnes: Yep.

[00:21:15] Kenny Lange: Does so that sounds like a balance between character and competence, right?

[00:21:19] That, that inner game which I don't, I can't remember if we talked about this in our first conversation. But the book, the only Leaders worth following from Tim Spiker where in their research it came down to they found eight traits or attributes of an effective leader. But two of 'em accounted for 77%.

[00:21:39] Of that equation which they found interesting. And it was being inwardly sound and others focused. And those were the only two that described who you are as a leader. And the other six were what you do. And that sounds a lot like what you're saying is the that being inwardly sound, the who you are, your [00:22:00] character as you move up in influence and position.

[00:22:05] Matters more and more, and maybe even more than sometimes the competencies you have

[00:22:13] Chris Barnes: Yeah. What's a leader's job?

[00:22:17] Kenny Lange: To lead.

[00:22:21] Chris Barnes: I threw that softball.

[00:22:22] Kenny Lange: school. I felt like I was in Sunday school. Jesus. That's the answer. The answer is Jesus. Okay.

[00:22:28] Chris Barnes: no are, we're supposed to get results through other people

[00:22:32] If,

[00:22:32] Kenny Lange: Helping two or more people accomplish a shared goal.

[00:22:37] Chris Barnes: That's what we get graded on, if you will. And so the more that Yeah. Or should. But in so many places, you've got people in in charge, let's say, that are still really individual contributors. They may have the title, but they're still the one jumping in, rolling up their sleeves, [00:23:00] getting into everything. Not passing the baton because when they do pass the baton, they haven't developed another person yet because they don't, haven't been developed. And then you can't really give or put all of this on the next person because then they fail. And then what do we do? We take that back, right? We take the power back. And so now we're the one sitting here with 60 hour weeks.

[00:23:27] Kenny Lange: right. Just trying to cover our own butt because we're not gonna let our. People, our team, make us look bad to our peers and our supervisor, which may in fact be the CEO or COO or something like that. Wow. So I wanna zoom in on something you said. A lot of people aren't developing their team members because they themselves were not the recipient of development.

[00:23:58] I've been [00:24:00] having this very conversation with several people lately, and I actually have, I'm getting more requests for some training that has to deal with, Hey, you have great leaders, but they're not developing their people. And it's usually because they were sharp, scrappy, growth-minded individuals that got to where they are by being exceptional practitioners delivering results in one capacity. No one really like took 'em under their wing or done this. And like in the context of a church, my pastor's been talking about this. He's like, this is discipleship. And he goes, but this is really hard 'cause nobody really did that for me. And now I'm trying. So I'm trying to break that cycle. So. What do you say to leaders and leadership teams where it's like, we're not developing those under us, but it's like, I've never witnessed this.

[00:24:49] No one did this for me, and you want me to come up with this? Like where do you even start if you've never been fitted from something that is so. PI [00:25:00] Pivotal, and it's not like, oh, you just read like a quick little pamphlet book and suddenly you're this dev developer of leaders. Like it's a substantial undertaking.

[00:25:10] Chris Barnes: Yeah, it's a process. Some people would say, just go get a mentor. The fact is, yes, mentors are very important. I've had them and I, when I hear great leaders that aren't developing people, are they really great leaders?

[00:25:27] Kenny Lange: Or are they great performers?

[00:25:29] Chris Barnes: I think, um. one of the best uh, descriptions for me. I know a lot of people use Jim Collins Good to great when it talks about, when he talks about the levels of leaders, but I like John Maxwell's his five levels of leadership because he talks about that level one leader, right? They come in and their title is why they're a leader.

[00:25:51] Kenny Lange: Right.

[00:25:52] Chris Barnes: Most people stay there. The next level is relationship. [00:26:00] You developed a relationship with people and now they're really working for you. And then he talks about, I think the next one is your competence. You do something big for the firm. And then level four is like you start creating level three leaders.

[00:26:14] Level five is something you can't actually, he's got a quiz for all of 'em except for level five, because that's something that someone else has to bestow on you basically, like, that's like end of life type stuff.

[00:26:25] Kenny Lange: That's like in influence, right? Because his definition is leadership is

[00:26:29] Chris Barnes: Yeah. He says in it's influence, nothing more, nothing less. Yep.

[00:26:33] Kenny Lange: But I think that was like at the top level is then you become a person of in influence or

[00:26:38] Chris Barnes: So in influence is actually down in there, three and four at range. But level five is like you're creating other level four and five leaders. So that's like him,

[00:26:50] Kenny Lange: It's almost like,

[00:26:52] Chris Barnes: He is been doing

[00:26:52] 50 years. Yeah. Yep.

[00:26:55] Kenny Lange: that'll outlive

[00:26:56] Chris Barnes: And I think that and one of the other things I love about it is he [00:27:00] tells you whenever a new person starts on your team, you're a level one leader to them.

[00:27:05] Whenever you take on a new role, you are, what if you were a level four, guess what? You are a level one leader again. Because it's a change in context. And the whole point is that you never just arrive and stay there. It's always in flux depending on the context that you're in. And so, so when you think about the situations that you're talking about where they're like, really great at what they did really great. That is awesome. And they got a title, maybe a little bit more money. They didn't leave level one.

[00:27:42] Some of them maybe did and got to level two. But when you're thinking about the craziness of the world today, the business climate, the type of complexity and the ability that leaders need to have to scale organizations or just keep 'em going, [00:28:00] right?

[00:28:01] There's a level of sophistication that just isn't there. For 75% of the adults. So, back to your question of like, I didn't see it. I don't, it's a journey and I will tell you from my own experience, I didn't I've never had a great boss that took me under their wing and never. It took hiring my own executive coaches, lots of reading mentors, leadership programs that are like a year long, there's a lot of work that goes into it. Just like if the other stuff that we wanna do, you wanna get in shape, you hire a personal trainer, but the personal trainer doesn't do the work for you.

[00:28:53] Kenny Lange: right.

[00:28:54] Chris Barnes: You have to do the work. And so where, when it comes to this type of stuff there's no [00:29:00] wheel to reinvent it. It's, there's plenty of stuff out there you can pick. American Icon is one of my favorite books. It's about Al Malali and how he turned around Ford

[00:29:14] Kenny Lange: Yeah.

[00:29:15] Chris Barnes: I based probably 90% of my leadership style off of the way that he is led.

[00:29:23] Kenny Lange: Wow. Yeah, I've heard different stories of just things he did said especially early on in his tenure to, to turn things around. 'cause that's when it was like the most stark contrast.

[00:29:37] Chris Barnes: they were gonna lose, was it 17 billion I think that year. And then the financial crisis happened, and yeah, it went down to a dollar a share and then ended up at $17 a share. So yeah.

[00:29:54] Kenny Lange: So how do you think about, or how do you coach. [00:30:00] Leaders to think about maybe a ratio of development to training. Some, somebody's listening to this and they're like, you know what? I also never really had somebody take me under their wing, but I want to be the kind of leader who develops other leaders, other level three, four, maybe five leaders, like one day.

[00:30:19] But they wanna understand like how do I balance this development versus training versus like, 'cause there are some some hard asses out there who are just like gung ho. We're doing every training we possibly can. And it's like, and no development. But I also know people who will spend a ton of time in development and not fill that bucket up with more stuff.

[00:30:39] It's just develop reshape. It seems like there should be a ratio or something to help kinda mark how we battle with this tension.

[00:30:49] Chris Barnes: Yeah, I think so. I've been in that that side of, oh, I'm gonna do this tactic, that tactic, this tactic. And I've built a really. Big toolbox because of it. But my executive coach she told [00:31:00] me a couple years ago, she's like, managers have tools, leaders know how and when to use them. And so I had a shotgun approach.

[00:31:14] Like if I read a book today, I guarantee you we were gonna implement something from it tomorrow. We're gonna try all the things, try as we were growing as a company and not knowing what we're doing, not having and essentially what has happened over the years, it's been a multi-year process of going from a shotgun approach to a scalpel, right?

[00:31:37] Kenny Lange: Is that just a function of time and experience?

[00:31:39] Chris Barnes: Partially. Yeah. Yeah. But the other part of that is if you have a great coach, which I've had I think six total and Jessie, I hope she gets to listen to this. I've, that we are now in year five, she's the only coach I've had that's been with me for more than [00:32:00] a year. Because she is so great at this very thing where, I've learned from her even how I work with other people.

[00:32:10] There are ways, whether it's asking questions or pointing something out to someone, because I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a dance that needs to be consciously done as far as, am I doing training or am I doing development? Am I doing training or training is largely gonna be dictated by the role that you're in. Pretty, pretty straightforward, right? I think when you're talking about how you're gonna show up for people, so, I like definition that it says leadership is the application of self to circumstances. That's talking about the inner game. And so, so I'm gonna have you're, there are gonna be tools.

[00:32:51] There are gonna be tools that you need and they're easy enough to find and teach and do, and that's great. But what I'm really focused on [00:33:00] is how are you showing up?

[00:33:02] So what we'll do is, as an example we, there's immunity to change. It's a framework as well. And but it says, let's just start, like, what's the one big thing that you can do to move the needle on your leadership?

[00:33:18] And it's not, you get to pick it, it's, you need to ask the people around you. And this needs to pass the spouse test.

[00:33:28] Kenny Lange: Whew.

[00:33:30] Chris Barnes: So when you've done that really uncomfortable work. Your, your husband or your wife says, yeah, that's not the thing you need to work on, and you and I both know it right Then that's what we're gonna work on for about six months. That's it.

[00:33:47] Kenny Lange: Yeah.

[00:33:49] Chris Barnes: And then we're gonna take the next thing and the next thing.

[00:33:51] And what tends to happen is as you start to grow into this more conscious leader. In one or two areas, an amazing thing starts [00:34:00] to happen where your brain starts operating in a way, and you start operating in a way that you start seeing it go across the circle because the rising tide lifts all boats, so to speak.

[00:34:12] You start becoming

[00:34:13] Kenny Lange: is like a compounding effect.

[00:34:14] Chris Barnes: And you become more conscious of how you're showing up in that reactive default state, like, ah, yeah that's not working. That doesn't feel right. So to your matrix comment, you become neo at the end where you see the ones and zeros and everything coming at you, right?

[00:34:34] And that's what ultimately helps you move into that more conscious creator role.

[00:34:40] Kenny Lange: I love that. And there's a great question I heard from Ian Morgan Kron. He's a Enneagram teacher host. His hosts the Typology podcast, but he ha, he laid a question out. I. It was like, it almost seemed like a throwaway. He just said it at the end of a podcast and then closed the show and I was like, wait, what was that?[00:35:00]

[00:35:00] It's what do you know about me that I don't, but I should,

[00:35:06] Chris Barnes: Yeah.

[00:35:07] Kenny Lange: The results and answers to that can be terrifying.

[00:35:12] Chris Barnes: Yeah. Especially if you're a reactive leader.

[00:35:15] Kenny Lange: So if somebody's listening and they're like, you know what, Chris has made a lot of sense, Kenny, not so much. But I want to be in that 25%. I want to be that more conscious leader, that person of character have that strong inner game. What's a baby step someone could take in the next 24 hours with little to no money?

[00:35:40] To start to make progress towards that.

[00:35:42] Chris Barnes: Pick away and I'm gonna give you a couple, but pick way to look in the mirror.

[00:35:50] Because what they say the first step is acknowledging that there's something there. I'm not gonna say there's a problem because you're not a problem to be fixed. And I wanna make sure that everyone [00:36:00] understands that. We have these strengths that we've been given and we were never developed in a way that helps us transcend and include is the phrase, pull on those strengths, include them in a positive way as we blossom.

[00:36:14] If you think about it like a mushroom, right? That bottom part of that circle should look like the stalk of a mushroom. The rest balloons beautifully up above. And these very conscious and creative competencies, we'll call it. And so understand that like these pieces that are a part of you they're great.

[00:36:36] Like you've been successful because these are great.

[00:36:41] Just now over-indexing on them is causing you to get into your own way.

[00:36:48] And so, so a couple of ways to do that. The easiest way. Just see what you think of yourself first. So the leadership circle profile has a free self-assessment. Do it, just see what it says. [00:37:00] Then if you really wanna

[00:37:01] Kenny Lange: we'll link that up in the show notes for anybody that wants to take a run at

[00:37:04] Chris Barnes: but the other is talk to people around you, like get really bold.

[00:37:09] And go to people who know you and ask, Hey, they say don't ask for feedback. 'cause people clam 'em up. So ask for advice. Whatever style works for you, do that. But do what you can to get a mirror. Don't worry about going and buying books and all of that sort of stuff and not yet, right?

[00:37:28] Kenny Lange: Yeah.

[00:37:29] Chris Barnes: Just start to get real with your soul.

[00:37:32] If you say, I wanna do this more. You can reach out to Kenny, you can reach out to me, you can reach out. There are a ton of people out there who will direct you and or point you in the direction of a coach or mentor or something so that you can have something tailored to you.

[00:37:51] Kenny Lange: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause everybody's journey. There's some guiding principles, but everybody's as. Different and different speeds. I, by the [00:38:00] way I absolutely love that you quoted Ken Wilber on transcendent. Include, you're the only me, you and Rob Bell are about. The only people I've ever heard say it. So, plus he has a great first name with Ken.

[00:38:13] So I'm partial to

[00:38:15] Chris Barnes: with that name.

[00:38:17] Kenny Lange: Maybe also as you were talking about, I just kept thinking it's like, yeah, just, it's just like Michael Jackson said, I'm gonna start with the man in the mirror. I'm gonna ask him if he'll change his way. I'm about to break out in song if you're ready. I'm just kidding. So this was so, so helpful Chris, and I know that we're probably, we have several more conversations ahead of us.

[00:38:37] Chris Barnes: And lunch.

[00:38:38] Kenny Lange: be. And lunch. Yes. Need to find a time for that. Now that I have my own vehicle again, that can happen. If anybody was like, man, I love that that Chris guy's brain. And I'd love to, ask him some follow up questions or just learn more about your work or ask questions about the leadership circle.

[00:38:55] 'cause I believe you're either just completed or going through the [00:39:00] certification.

[00:39:00] Chris Barnes: I got certified on it.

[00:39:03] Kenny Lange: Boom. Where can they reach out to you? How do they connect with you?

[00:39:06] Chris Barnes: LinkedIn is the fastest.

[00:39:09] Kenny Lange: Okay. We'll have that link. So, alright, Chris, thanks so much for dropping some wisdom on all of us. I don't take it for granted um, the, the hard one wisdom um, that you're sharing. So this is awesome. I'm excited by it.

[00:39:24] I took some stuff away. I don't like to take notes, but I should probably have taken some notes. I

[00:39:28] Chris Barnes: got it recorded, so that's good.

[00:39:30] Kenny Lange: But I never listen to my own podcast 'cause I don't wanna hear my own voice. So I'm gonna see if my editor will get me a cut with just your parts and it'll just sound like one half of a conversation.

[00:39:39] But to all the listeners, thank you so much for spending part of your day with me and with Chris. We hope that you found value and you were also, you got a little entertainment out of it as well. If you would. Like, rate, review, subscribe, whatever the right button is on your platform of choice.

[00:39:56] I would deeply appreciate it. Leave some comments. If there's something you're looking for, [00:40:00] a topic, a conversation you'd like to go deeper on let me know. I enjoy these. I have what some would call the gift of gab but I wanna make sure that I'm bringing conversations. That are of value to you.

[00:40:11] That's why I do this. Plus your engagement helps the algorithm find the show and put it in front of people who actually could really benefit from it. And that is a free and easy way for you to positively impact another leader on their journey. But until next time, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead.

[00:40:27] We'll see you.