How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Cheryl Torres [00:00:00]:
One person can't do everything, and you can't. You will become the bottleneck of any organization that you're trying to do. You have to be able to pass these things off. And so with that, when you build into your people, they're invested in what you're doing almost as much as you are, because they see the value in it and they've experienced the value itself, and then they are approaching the next person that they're training in the same light, and it just builds a different culture.

Kenny Lange [00:00:34]:
Welcome to the How Leaders think podcast, the show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang, and with me today is Cheryl Torres. She is the executive director of Elijah's Retreat, a compassionate leader and a dedicated nonprofit advocate and child advocate. I think that she's occupied every job possible in the state that they'll allow her. They may be putting a limit on her, but under her guidance, Elijah's retreat has experienced remarkable growth, expanding from just 34 families in 2017 to over 300 in 2023. She has a ba in psychology from Rockhurst University, a rich background in service and counseling older adults with severe mental illness, and the Jesuit Volunteer Corps to serving as a foster mother and later as a foster care caseworker, which is just as stressful at Casa de Esperanza de los Ninos. And Cheryl will tell you what that means in English shortly. In addition to her transformative work at Elijah's retreat, Cheryl has pioneered a successful internship program for youth facing autism.

Kenny Lange [00:01:54]:
Been married for almost 15 years to Jason, and is a mother of five awesome kids. She finds fulfillment in creating sanctuaries for families, recognizing the profound impact a single smile or shared memory can have on a child's life. Welcome to the show, Cheryl.

Cheryl Torres [00:02:12]:
Thank you, Kenny. It's wonderful to be here. Thank you. It's great to be in your space and hang out with you as another amazing reader.

Kenny Lange [00:02:21]:
Well, thank you. You're so kind. I'll start getting squirmish and squeamish if you start putting the spotlight back on me. So I got to turn the tables before you do it to me first. I did not mention to the audience, Cheryl is also one of my fellow leadership. Tyler, class 37. The best class ever, not so far, right? And so I've gotten to know her over the last several months. She's an amazing leader, just an incredible individual.

Kenny Lange [00:02:53]:
And so I was excited to hear everything that she's doing. But she just has a really cool way of thinking about leadership, about stepping into some difficult situations as we went through in your bio. But, Cheryl, as we start every episode, what is on your mind?

Cheryl Torres [00:03:14]:
Well, one of the things that's on my mind is a different style of leadership, like you said, where it's really focusing on people. People first, people matter, right? Nobody cares what you know until they know how much you care, first of all. Right? But when you take the time to invest and get to know the people you're working with or the people you're serving or just, you know, people you're in a leadership class with, you really get the opportunity to help build people, and that can change the world little bit by little bit by little bit. And that's kind of always been my philosophy, is, let's get to know the people. If it's a child that I'm fostering, if it's a person I'm counseling, or if it's a family that I'm serving in foster care or here at Elijah's retreat, the families that come out here are just so thirsty to be understood and to be appreciated for the strength that they do have. And then they're welcomed to be able to be pushed to whatever the next step is for them. They're eager for that, but they first want to be understood and want to be cherished for the strengths that they bring to the table.

Kenny Lange [00:04:24]:
Yeah, that's. I love that. If, as I listen to that, I can't imagine anyone else listening or watching this going, well, that's dumb. Why would you ever want to do that? Right? It seems like what you say seems so intuitive. But the fact of the matter is, is that what you described as the exception, at least in my experience, is the exception instead of the rule. So, in your mind, why is something that when you hear it, sounds like, well, of course, but we don't actually see it in practice out in the.

Cheryl Torres [00:05:08]:
Real world, I think too often we're focused on the bottom line at the moment, right? Like, okay, it'd be five times faster for me to accomplish said task than it would be to teach an autistic intern who's never worked before how to do this task and that even maybe this task has merit to being even done. I could just sit down and do it so much faster. But what we've really learned, especially out here at Elijah's retreat, is when we take the time to show these interns how to do things, they gain the confidence that, hey, I can do this. And then they gain the confidence of, wow, there's real merit to working. I have value. I am a happier person, because I see the difference I'm making, and it propels them into becoming somebody who is a great employee, wherever that ends up being, because now they bought into it, they get the merit to it, and that changes lives. And so I think it's hard because initially, it's going to take longer. When your people focused, you may not get all the tasks that you had on that list done today because that's not your focus.

Cheryl Torres [00:06:24]:
But you really do move the ball along a lot further in the long game.

Kenny Lange [00:06:31]:
Yeah. Which, I mean, I'm somebody that I tell people my mode of operation for most of my life has been fire, aim, ready. Right. Or as the brother of a friend of mine used to say, that he was going mock Jesus with his hair on fire. And I was like, no, I think that's my speed, and that's where I'm really comfortable. And so sometimes the thought of the, I could do this five times faster, you know, and maybe if the circumstances are just right, I'll slow down. To teach somebody something so that they can do it can feel.

Cheryl Torres [00:07:11]:
Painful.

Kenny Lange [00:07:12]:
Nerve wracking. Yeah. Painfully even. I think that's a great. That's a much better descriptor. That's. I'm thinking now about even trying to teach my kids how to do some things, and that's painful, but that's where.

Cheryl Torres [00:07:24]:
I got this idea from, to be honest, was just like, okay, well, I need my cheat. My kids need to some point know how to do the dishes. If they're gonna be married to somebody, they're gonna want to know that skill well. But I don't think they figure it out.

Kenny Lange [00:07:38]:
Come teach my kids.

Cheryl Torres [00:07:39]:
Well, it's the same principle. It's painful, and you may not know where that ladle is because it might have got put in the wrong spot a couple times, but in the end, you're building people, and the outcome is so much better than knowing always where that label is, you know? And so it's a shift in perspective of what is the outcome we're really looking for.

Kenny Lange [00:08:06]:
Beyond, like, what I think you said it uniquely and well about the bottom line of the moment. Right. Like, the task needs to be. Needs to get done. And I don't hear you debating that. You know, task projects, things like that are not important, but 100%, they don't supersede. Like, if you look beyond the current moment, then it does make sense to make that painful investment in someone else learning how to do that, whatever the task may be.

Cheryl Torres [00:08:39]:
Yeah. And to, you know, nobody wants to do anything painful. Right. So that's a hard sell, but it is painful at first, but it really becomes the most rewarding thing you've ever done when you really get to see the aha moments and then the transformative nature that this. That living that way and leading that way really has that amazing effect.

Kenny Lange [00:09:06]:
Yeah, I would agree. How would you respond to the leader that says, well, I've gotten pretty far in life by going, you know, mock Jesus with my hair on fire, by getting things done by, you know, if somebody's smart and can move fast and they can kind of watch me as I go, great, but I don't have time to sort of go down to lowest common denominator and bring someone along, what would you tell them is unproductive about that kind of thinking?

Cheryl Torres [00:09:45]:
I feel like you've been in my brain for the last year, Kenny. This is where God's been pushing me. So I was working at mock speed with Eliza's retreat. You know, when we first got here, it was just me and my husband, who works as a fireman and paramedic back in the city of Houston. So three and a half hours away, God bless him. And it was me and my kids and my husband when he was here. We ran all of Elijah's. You treat the first year, just us, and, mind you, off of a $34,000 budget.

Cheryl Torres [00:10:14]:
So it was bare bones, all of us pitching in, all of my kids, even my little one and a half year old at the time. And I. And so I've been running at a very fast pace with Elijah jewetry, trying to keep up with the amount of growth that you were talking about. But what I have learned is that if I. When I. When I do start, stop and slow it down, and even though I don't feel like I have the time to do so and teach different people these different skills and these different tasks and different things that I can pass off to them, when I do that, it's tenfold what can get accomplished. And so maybe it took me three months where it was maybe slightly painful to pass this and to teach, but then what they're doing and accomplishing over the next three years is way more than what I could do by myself. Right.

Cheryl Torres [00:11:11]:
So it is the short. Yeah, it really is the short game that you're taking the time to teach it to them, and. But it really does. One person can't do everything, and you can't. You will become the bottleneck of any organization that you're trying to do. You have to be able to pass these things off. And so with that, when you build into your people, they're invested in what you're doing almost as much as you are because they see the value in it and they've experienced the value itself, and then they are approaching the next person that they're training in the same light, and it just builds a different culture. And in the end, you'll be getting so much more done.

Kenny Lange [00:11:55]:
There's a lot. There's a phrase. I actually had my coach say this on a call recently, and it comes from. I want to say it comes from the Marine Corps sniper school, which is slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. So, like, when you're a sniper, like you're in the military, like, you're, you know, you need to be able to reload and do things quickly, but you can't panic and just do it at this frantic sort of pace and do everything. So they teach them, like, slow it down, make it smooth. And when you're smooth, you'll actually go faster. That's right.

Kenny Lange [00:12:40]:
I've also heard sometimes you need to slow down to speed up 100%.

Cheryl Torres [00:12:46]:
That's what my, my husband has taught me that, you know, as a paramedic, you show up on a scene of a horrific situation that's happening and your heart starts racing. And the first thing they all do or are trained to do, and they train on this on a regular basis, is slow everything down, slow your breathing, change your heart rate, and start thinking through it, and you'll get everything. Everybody helped a lot faster than panic. It's exactly the same thing, right?

Kenny Lange [00:13:10]:
Yeah. My, my brother in law is an ER physician, so, I mean, he gets those, you know, those emergency calls and, and is in those moments where, you know, it's not all calm like it is when they're in. You know, it's not always calm in an ICU, but when they're admitted, like, you got a little time, you can take a look at some things and stuff, but, like, somebody's cut open or he treated a guy that was attacked by a pimp with an axe. Like, what do you do? Like, when somebody's been, you know, attacked like that? It's easy to get overwhelmed and go, wow, this is horrific.

Cheryl Torres [00:13:43]:
Yes.

Kenny Lange [00:13:44]:
And now leading inside of an organization, leading some other people may not feel like it has the same level of risk or danger, but I still think that that anxiety can, can bubble up. Something that comes to mind is thinking about new leaders, newer leaders. Maybe they're in. If you were sitting down with, say, someone who's just been promoted to, to that mid level or higher or senior level position and it's their first time to occupy that seat. I think a lot of us get to those seats by being high achievers, high performance individuals, and we want to prove that whoever made the decision to place us in that seat was right, that it was the right decision, that they can trust us, we can be their go to person for whatever our responsibilities are. But it's almost like that the higher you go, the less you're actually doing, the more you're deciding. So how do you talk to somebody like that? To where that anxiety of, well, if I'm just passing stuff off, they're going to think I'm incompetent and maybe they made the wrong decision. Or like, there's all those voices that get into your head.

Kenny Lange [00:14:59]:
And I'm sure you've dealt with a lot of that with the different positions. You stepped into foster care, both as a parent and as a service worker. Like, there's a lot coming at you. So how do you start to calm down so you can assess the situation.

Cheryl Torres [00:15:14]:
Again, focusing on others, focusing on the people you're serving, you know? So when you step into that new position as a new leader, you're going to be overseeing other people. Get to know them. What do they need? Check in with them. Your job changed from doing the task to now helping them have all the resources that they need to do their job. And that may include teaching them certain aspects, but it's also going to involve setting that culture. And what is that culture? Is it positive? Is it a place where people feel safe, that they can make mistakes and then learn from them? Or is it where everyone's timid to even show that they had a mistake? Right. And so your job isn't necessarily the task doing all these tasks anymore. And that changes because that's, you are, you're right, you're promoted for doing well.

Cheryl Torres [00:16:04]:
Well, now my job is very different. I'm not doing that well anymore. Now I'm teaching other people how to do that well, which is a great opportunity. But you have to switch that in your brain, right, that now your job is your coach. You get to cheer them on and give them the resources that they need to thrive in that capacity that you were doing before. And so I think the best way to calm that down is just get to know them. People matter. What do they need? Cause it may be different than what you needed.

Cheryl Torres [00:16:38]:
What do they need to do their job well and learn them?

Kenny Lange [00:16:43]:
I think that's really important. What you just said, could you elaborate a bit more on that? Because I think we start with, well, what helped me or what was done sometimes to me or for me by the leaders I had, and we just lean immediately into that. Can you go into that a little bit more?

Cheryl Torres [00:17:03]:
Oh, sure. I think I learned this early on as a caseworker. When I stepped into that role, it was like, well, I'm not even a parent at this point. I've been a foster parent for a year, and I've learned some there, but I don't know if I feel qualified for this. Right. And so my mentor at the time gave me the confidence, allowed me the space to gain the confidence that I needed. And so she let me try things, and then we sat and we would, you know, once a week at first or however often we needed after that checked in. How's it going? What did you think about this situation? These kids was, what do you, what is your take on this? And she gave me the space to talk it out, and then she gave me valuable insight.

Cheryl Torres [00:17:48]:
She wasn't afraid to call me out or in a kind, but just matter of fact way of where I needed to grow, which I appreciated. But at the same time, she gave me the space to see if I got there on my own as well. And I think that, and she didn't make me do it her way. She took the time to get to know me and see what, and give me again the space and time to figure out how do I solve these problems. And maybe it's a different way, but it's effective, maybe it's more effective, maybe it's not effective, and we need to teach another way, but giving me the space to do that gave me the confidence that I was, I could step up into that role. And so that's what I've tried to do in mirror for other people that I've worked with or for people that I am on a project with or people that I am mentoring with our autistic interns. When they come out here, Kenny, they don't want to work. The first day they come out here, the first thing they say to me is, I don't want to be here.

Cheryl Torres [00:18:52]:
I don't know why I would have to work. Why would anybody ever want to work?

Kenny Lange [00:18:59]:
That's a great question.

Cheryl Torres [00:19:01]:
I mean, they're just, you know, we've all thought this, right? They just said they don't bust them, they don't have a filter, and so whatever they're thinking comes out. And many times I'm saying, to them. You know, I understand that, Sheila, but the way the world goes round, this is going to be something you're going to have to figure out. Like, you're going to have to work so that you can buy groceries, so that you can do these things. But the other thing you're not going to understand right now, and I tell them this day one, the thing you're not going to understand, and believe me right now, is that you're actually going to enjoy working because you're going to see the outcome of what you're doing. And they say, I don't know what you're talking about. Two weeks later, by giving them the chance to come out here, by giving them the chance to just, you know, unload on me, on all the reasons why this is a terrible idea, but we're gonna do it anyway, right? And we keep going. Two weeks into it, they're coming to me and they're saying, thank you for giving me the opportunity.

Cheryl Torres [00:19:56]:
I see the difference I made on that little kid when he was out here horseback riding.

Kenny Lange [00:20:00]:
Wow.

Cheryl Torres [00:20:00]:
That was profound. That made a difference for me. Thank you. We had two of our interns. Totally surprised me. Well, it was one of those awesome God moments where you're, like, following God's path, doing what you think God's asking you to do, but you don't really understand why all of it and what the whole picture is. And then you get those moments where you're like, look what you did. God, that was amazing.

Cheryl Torres [00:20:24]:
Right? So one of those moments for me was when I was interviewing two of our early interns and about their experience of working at Elijah's retreat. It was for our first gala that we did. And so I was interviewing them for the video, and I was just asking them various questions, and they interrupted me and they said, cheryl, you know, one of the best things about working at Elijah's retreat is that I learned about autism.

Kenny Lange [00:20:52]:
Hmm.

Cheryl Torres [00:20:53]:
Yeah. I'm diagnosed with autism, but I didn't really understand what autism is, and I didn't really understand what my strengths were. But getting to meet and work with so many different autistic individuals, I see the merit. I see the beauty of being autistic. I'm no longer ashamed or even considered a disability. I see it as a special ability that I have. And I went, wow. Okay.

Cheryl Torres [00:21:27]:
God, this whole thing of taking the.

Kenny Lange [00:21:28]:
Time to wrap the video, that's all we needed, how to work.

Cheryl Torres [00:21:33]:
It worked, and it did something more than I even anticipated. Right?

Kenny Lange [00:21:38]:
Wow.

Cheryl Torres [00:21:38]:
And so I really learned from these amazing interns. That by giving them the confidence of just trying it and doing it, they gain that confidence that they can make a difference and that they have merit and they have value. And I think that we can do that. I think we all need that. Right? Like, I know I need that.

Kenny Lange [00:21:59]:
Right.

Cheryl Torres [00:21:59]:
I need to know that what I'm doing has value, and I think we all do that. And so I think when you create that culture of people first, no matter how painful that is at times, at moments, the end game is that you really do build people, and those people will help that bottom line happen a lot faster.

Kenny Lange [00:22:22]:
Yeah.

Cheryl Torres [00:22:23]:
And you allow from God to step in and shine in ways you don't even realize it.

Kenny Lange [00:22:30]:
Yeah, I think not to turn this into a sermon. Lord knows I could. But sometimes moving too fast, we don't allow the space, forgot to come in and to work in those gaps and show us things that otherwise we would have missed. To your point, one, that is a beautiful story. So I'm going to remember that. That's incredible. And maybe off camera, I may want to ask more questions.

Cheryl Torres [00:23:04]:
Sure.

Kenny Lange [00:23:06]:
I want to press in a little bit more on something you said about translating your work with, you know, kids in particular, but families that, that have a loved one, a child, someone who's on the spectrum, and someone may, a leader may be listening to this, say, yeah, that's great. I get it. You're, you're in the nonprofit space. There's, there's room for that. It's acceptable. And, and people on the spectrum, obviously, I would slow down for somebody that was diagnosed with autism, but you translated it over into that. This could be applicable to everybody. And I'm wondering if there's a mental shift that you could name that helps translate that situation over to be not just a particular, but more of a universal.

Cheryl Torres [00:24:06]:
Well, sure. I think God kind of taught me this when I went from parenting two kids to parenting three and then four and then five, and that it's a little bit of a, we changed the way we parented. You know, I can no longer helicopter parent my older kid like I was doing. To be frank, with five kids, you can't do that. There's not enough bandwidth.

Kenny Lange [00:24:35]:
You're in a zone defense.

Cheryl Torres [00:24:38]:
It turns to a zone defense. It absolutely does. But with that, it made me challenge. And I realized that as we moved to zone defense, not only are my husband and I doing zone defense, but all of my kids are making up more responsibility because they had to. But when they did that, they gained confidence. And when they did that, they did more. They took more responsibility. And I think that if we switch gears and, you know, we all want our children, we all want our coworkers, we all want the people who are working for us to gain confidence, to have that confidence, to be successful, to try new things, to experiment in good ways.

Cheryl Torres [00:25:22]:
But with that, we, you know, we. I was with my oldest stifling him too much, that I was there to catch him before he even fell. I didn't want him to fall. But, you know, Kenny, I don't know about you, but I know I have learned more from my mistakes in my life than I have learned from my winnings.

Kenny Lange [00:25:44]:
That'll preach.

Cheryl Torres [00:25:45]:
Well, I mean, it's the chimp. We all do that, though, right? If we're students of. Of life, right? That if we don't shut down when we fail with something, as long as we go, okay, well, that didn't work. We switch gears, learn a lesson, and keep going. We learn a lot more from our feelings than we do from when something went well. And we have to give our kids, we have to give our employees, we have to give our friends. We have to give our friends at church the opportunity to be able to learn from failures, too, not just catch them beforehand. Not that we're not there, but we got to give them the space to be able to do that, to be able to learn from their mistakes and then help them with that journey and walk alongside them.

Cheryl Torres [00:26:31]:
I think if we look at it, that we're walking alongside and we're there to just not catch, but be there to help walk it out, work it out, and give them the space to do back up. Yeah, but give them the space to also problem solve before we jump in and solve it for him.

Kenny Lange [00:26:54]:
Yeah, there's a. That makes me think of a book is probably in. It's in my top three to five books of all time so far. It's called the coaching Habit and by Michael Bungay Stanier. And it was transformative to me because of what you were just saying, which is stay curious a little bit longer. Fight what he calls the advice monster, that knee jerk. Especially when you're a parent or you have titled leadership and authority to. Oh, let me tell you real quick, just to make sure you don't mess up or you don't make a mistake or something like that.

Kenny Lange [00:27:38]:
And inserting yourself in the situation, which I think a difficult part, at least it has been for me in the past, is I wasn't speaking out of turn by actually saying any of those things. Technically, I had the right and the place and the privilege and the responsibility to say those things, but the fact that I did it all up front made it detrimental to the people working for me or to. To my kids, even.

Cheryl Torres [00:28:09]:
Yes. Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:28:12]:
You gotta give them curious just a little bit longer.

Cheryl Torres [00:28:14]:
I love that it is. And when you stay curious a little bit longer, sometimes they amaze you in what they create.

Kenny Lange [00:28:24]:
That is very true. But the nice thing with kids is when they do that, you're like, yep, those are my jeans. I knew it was there all along.

Cheryl Torres [00:28:35]:
Right.

Kenny Lange [00:28:36]:
Trying to take some credit. Except I got a couple of adopted kids. So now that, that theory may be blown out of the water, but you.

Cheryl Torres [00:28:45]:
Can still take credit for it.

Kenny Lange [00:28:47]:
Yeah. So as someone is thinking about, you know, I think there's a couple of big things I've heard you say about build, you know, being people first, but building people sort of the old, if you. If you build your people, they'll build your. Your company, your organization, um, confidence being supremely important. And then safety, like psychological safety, just the safety to have non fatal failure. And I don't mean non fatal as it didn't kill you, but sort of like the, in a for profit situation, you know, you can make a mistake that might cost you some money, but not put you out of business or something like that. Those were some big themes that I heard. If somebody is wanting to transform their leadership, make steps towards this, what's something that is a first step in the next, say, 24 hours with little to no cost that they could do to practically start implementing what you've been talking about?

Cheryl Torres [00:29:51]:
Yeah, the biggest. This isn't something that's going to cost you a lot of money at all. This is just mostly going to cost you a mental shift. And so what that involves is take some time over the next 24 hours, check in with your employees, take a second one on one, check in with them. How are they doing? Show that you are invested in them and you care about them. You know, maybe stop and bring them their favorite coffee to show that thoughtfulness or something and that, you know, cost a couple bucks. Sure. But you don't even.

Cheryl Torres [00:30:24]:
It's more the time that you give them and that may just be five minutes of a check in. Right. But then also, when assigning projects, I have found if you change your mental thought towards it, but also the words you use in assigning a project, you know, here's this thing that we need to get accomplished. What do you see as the end when it's complete? What does complete look like to you and give them the space to kind of describe what that looks like. But then also, what do you think the timeline is that you can do this instead of giving them the timeline that you need it to be done in now, you can always come back and say, well, I hear you. You say you can get this done in two weeks. You kind of need this to be done in a week. What can we do to help facilitate that? But giving them the space to be setting these expectations on themselves gives them that confidence a little bit.

Cheryl Torres [00:31:24]:
Right. And then when you check in with them, it's not, you know, if something goes wrong, it's not, oh, I'm taking the product back. Never mind. It's okay. That didn't go great. Gotcha. We need to solve this. What do you.

Cheryl Torres [00:31:39]:
And get again, what do you think are some tools that I can do or help you to be able to solve this? Ask them what they need from you instead of telling them what they need.

Kenny Lange [00:31:51]:
So those little tweaks, that often helps.

Cheryl Torres [00:31:58]:
And I've learned these the hard way, but I have learned that you have me. Both sisters make a difference.

Kenny Lange [00:32:07]:
Yeah. I. I joke with, uh, my. My friends. I was like, look, I was like, I will discover the potholes on the road of life, and I'll do my best to shine a light on them so that, uh, you won't take two months or two years to figure this out. You can maybe take two weeks and be done with it.

Cheryl Torres [00:32:25]:
Sure.

Kenny Lange [00:32:25]:
Um. So, uh, yeah, I'm definitely learning from those. Those mistakes. Cheryl, this has been tremendously helpful. I'm. I'm confident and. And saying that I don't think this will be our last recorded session on leadership and other brilliant things that you have going on. But if somebody wanted to know more about you, your work with Elijah's retreat, where would you send them?

Cheryl Torres [00:32:50]:
Yeah, simply go to our website. It's just Elijah's retreat.com. And you could follow us on Facebook. We've got a lot of events and different things going on in east Texas for families with autism pretty much on a regular basis. So any one of those things would get you connected in.

Kenny Lange [00:33:09]:
Excellent. And we will make sure that those links are posted in the show notes. Well, thank you so much for being my guest today. We look forward to future conversations and thank you to all of you who are listening right now, wherever you may be. On the driving, on the road, running on the road running in the woods. If you're running in the woods, I hope that it's not from somebody and that you're safe. But when you get a moment, I sure would love it if you would rate and review the podcast. It helps things like this be found by more people that can be helped.

Kenny Lange [00:33:43]:
If this is helping you, let's help others discover it as well. I would be deeply appreciative of that. But until next time, remember, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead. We'll see.