How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

Carter Severns [00:00:00]:
There's no reason to beat around the bush. Like you should tell people straight and be honest. But what I think what's interesting about that is those conversations go a lot differently if you've taken the time to establish a relationship with that person. So by the time you get to a point where you have to have some honesty, you have to have some feedback, it's totally different when you've laid the groundwork and been intentional to create some type of rapport with them.

Kenny Lange [00:00:24]:
Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast podcast, a show that transforms you by renewing your mind and giving you new ways to think. I am your host, Kenny Lang and with me today is the Carter Severance. He is the svp, which sounds very, very impressive. The SVP of marketing for delivery solutions. Sounds mysterious and maybe we'll get into that. He's a husband, a dad, and a four time marketing executive based out of Dallas, Texas. Texas.

Carter Severns [00:00:53]:
Whoop whoop.

Kenny Lange [00:00:54]:
For the past decade plus he's been running growth and marketing for B2B SaaS and growth stage companies. He's also built a reputation for building and executing go to market strategies, starting marketing from scratch, which is no small feat, and being a revenue focused leader for those high growth companies. Welcome to the show, Carter.

Carter Severns [00:01:15]:
Kenny, what's going on man? I appreciate you having me on. It's great to see you again. Excited to chat.

Kenny Lange [00:01:20]:
Yeah, I, I feel like the, the circumstances are, are much friendlier this time around and maybe we're more free to speak and I'm just gonna leave that there.

Carter Severns [00:01:30]:
Yeah.

Kenny Lange [00:01:31]:
All right.

Carter Severns [00:01:31]:
No, we'll give no context to, to that. Right.

Kenny Lange [00:01:34]:
I, I love to add to, to just make comments, no context. We'll let people figure it out. Tell me, Carter, what is on your mind?

Carter Severns [00:01:43]:
So as I was starting to prepare for this conversation, sort of looking through some of the previous episodes, it's actually intriguing how open ended this begins and it just gives me the, I feel like I want to take it. So I'll give a little preface and then I want to tell a little bit of a story that I don't know that I've ever really like Talked about on LinkedIn or you know, I've joked about it with like my, my family and things like that, but there's just something that I picked up on early in my career from the first BP that I worked for my very first job out of college. It was this really interesting thing. Maybe you call it soft skills, maybe you call it reading the room. Maybe you just, you know, read it, you know, think about how to connect with people on a different level, you know, relationship wise. And it's just something that stuck with me from the first, you know, three months of my life outside of college and an internship. So I'll share this quick little story and then we can go into it. But when I worked in this, in this job, huge, massive, you know, 500, 600 person, you know, marketing firm, mostly more on traditional marketing.

Carter Severns [00:02:39]:
So think about direct mail and in store and flyers printing, that kind of thing. But they had this little small digital department that they had started. And so that's where I got into the digital marketing world and started to cut my teeth with building websites and things like that. We were in a meeting, it was a big planning meeting for a huge launch that we were about to have for this like, online product that we had built for a customer. And my VP that I worked for, I use like the head of technology or something like that was, was his title, was kind of going, going through what the plan was and prefacing what everyone was responsible for. And because this is such a big launch, the. The president of the company was actually in this meeting. And because we were a newer department, we were smaller as far as like what revenue was being brought in.

Carter Severns [00:03:20]:
The president really wasn't in tune with anything that we were doing. Wasn't familiar with digital or any of the online stuff. Much more well versed in the traditional marketing world. But as my VP is going through this launch plan, he looks over at the president of the company and says, you know, look, I know you know all of this stuff, you understand all these things, but for everyone else in the room that doesn't understand it, I'm going to talk through some of the technical specifications of this launch that we need to be aware of. And I'm sitting there thinking, I was like, the president of the company has no idea about any of these things. And yet my VP took a second to essentially pander, if you will, to appease to make them that, you know, the president, make them feel like they were in the know and they knew everything that was going on and was the leader of the company kind of thing. And that has stuck in my brain since then of just the ability to. And that was maybe an extreme version, right? It's probably going a little too far into pandering or brown nosing or what do you want to call it? But there was something that stuck with me of if you can, if you can make connections with people and get them to like you in a sense and actually have a Genuine connection or relationship with the people around you or the people that you work for, it completely changes the trajectory of your career.

Carter Severns [00:04:33]:
And maybe this is dumbing it down a little too black and white or a little too binary, if you will. But if you think about two entry level associates that have the exact same job title, same role, same responsibility, and there's one promotion open and one of them has a really great relationship with the manager and they have good rapport and they have good sense of humor, inside jokes, whatever that is, when that manager goes to sit down and decide who they're going to promote, what happens in that scenario? And it's not fair, it's not right, but it happens. And whether people want to talk about it out loud or not, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't be, but it is. The reality of how the workplace works sometimes is your ability to connect with people. So I'll stop there. Kenny, I'll give you, give you a second.

Kenny Lange [00:05:16]:
I love that this is a great topic. It's one that in one way, shape or form I've wrestled with because I, I was, I was taught like, no, everything's a meritocracy and I was lied to and I've gotten therapy for that. But, but it, there, there's so much truth to that. But if, if when people, let's say someone's listening to this and they go, yeah, absolutely, of course it's, it's that way. Or somebody is saying listening and, and they have, you know, what, what some people call a blinding flash of the obvious. Like you've never articulated it, but as soon as you hear it, you go, well, yeah, naturally. Okay, that, that makes a lot of sense. I've seen that, I've lived it.

Kenny Lange [00:06:00]:
If it's that clear when we talk about it, why is that still so hard to grasp? Like what is, what is the prevailing wisdom in the marketplace and the, the, the job, you know, in our jobs that makes it so that people don't lean into that.

Carter Severns [00:06:18]:
Yeah. So I actually think it comes down to self awareness. I think that people that don't, don't realize that those things are happening also probably don't realize that they're the ones that's on the other side of it. Simple example, right when you go to slack, someone on the team that you need something from and it's immediate, hey, I need this by tomorrow. Can you send it to me? Rather than hey, how are you? How's your day going? Or hey, good morning. Just like, just the simplest things that some people don't even think about that. Comes off as you barking demands at someone as opposed to just leading with hey, good morning, how are you? It can start that simply. The other thing I think that I, that I've seen over the years of interviewing and hiring and a lot of times more in like an entry level position one or two years into their career is there's a lot of folks that don't know how to make that connection.

Carter Severns [00:07:08]:
And I'm not going to call out generations or whatever, but some people have communicated through a phone more than they have face to face. And I honestly, my generation is guilty of that. I was fortunate that in college I worked at Home Depot all through college and I mixed paint at the paint desk and that's how I paid for my dog food and my Jimmy John's. I had to strike up a conversation with a stranger every three minutes for eight hours a day. And it forced me to look at people in the eye, communicate with them, make a connection in some capacity. And again, I'm mixing paint. It's not anything serious, but I know that that stretched me and forced me to have that type of like soft skill communication. But I think a lot of don't people, people don't get that.

Carter Severns [00:07:49]:
I also, for some reason when I was in college was volun told that I would be presenting for group projects and I didn't want to do it, but I forced myself to get up in front of people and speak and I benefited from that directly.

Kenny Lange [00:08:03]:
That one, I, I love that. Two, I had had some similar experiences, some in college. I would say probably the one of the most critical ones was out right out of college I got a job with a third party sales organization and the client in our market was Reliant Energy and we would go door to door and Your minimum was 40 doors a day, bare minimum that you had to knock on. And so I'm walking around in the Texas heat, going door to door, trying to get people to show me their electric bills and how I and see if I could save them money. And so I had to like you, I had to get good at how can I build rapport in the next three seconds with probably the office manager, the receptionist, Sometimes it was, you know, like the owner, the manager, depending on how the, you know, business was laid out. But I think in doing it and getting that high volume of reps and sets did a lot for me to understand, like, oh, okay. Because I'm a direct communicator, that is my natural style. So when you start talking about on slack is like not saying good morning and how are you? And I'm like, just get to the point, man.

Kenny Lange [00:09:31]:
Like, let's just talk. I had to learn, like, oh, okay, I'm coming off this way. I've had, I've had to not be someone I'm not. Because I think that's what probably a lot of people hear when they hear you say. It's like, oh, you gotta, gotta be likable, you gotta do this. It's like, I don't, I'm not a brown noser. I'm not gonna kiss butt, I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna.

Kenny Lange [00:09:55]:
You're telling me that who I am is wrong. Like, and I'm saying this as someone who has fought and thought a lot of those similar things. So when given the fact that you've been in leadership now for a while and you've, you've hired, you fired, you've moved people up and you've obviously had to navigate a lot of the social circumstances that come with larger companies. How, how would you advise people to think, to maybe reframe the that thought, that maybe a mistaken belief that if they are more direct, naturally more direct, and maybe that some of that is a lack of self awareness, how do you do it in a way that still feels authentic? Because I think people also smell in people when they are inauthentic or not being genuine.

Carter Severns [00:10:48]:
Yeah. And it's interesting. So let's touch on the direct communication thing first. I think there's always a place for that. I think you're always going to have to have direct conversations, especially when you've got teams of folks and you've got performance issues or wherever those things are. And I think it is important. Right. There's no reason to beat around the bush.

Carter Severns [00:11:04]:
Like you should tell people straight and be honest. But what I think what's interesting about that is those conversations go a lot differently if you've taken the time to establish a relationship with that person. Right. So by the time you get to a point where you have to have some honesty, you have to have some feedback, it's totally different when you've laid the groundwork and been intentional. I think the word I'm going to use is intentional here to create some type of rapport with them. And so this is interesting too, right? Because this sounds like you're on the other side of the fence, which is great because now we can learn from each other. But there is something to be said about, you know, putting yourself in someone else's shoes and understanding how you're making them feel or vice versa, and being intentional about trying to lead off on the right foot with someone. I just know that, you know, when it comes down to, hey, you know what? This slipped on my calendar and I got behind and I need it tomorrow, can you help me out? The reaction you get is very different if you've got a relationship with that person rather than if you just screened with them, you know, in a call two hours ago and now you need something.

Carter Severns [00:12:08]:
There's just a level of, I don't know what it is. Communication, trust, relationship. I don't want to say likability because that seems unfeasible or unreasonable, but I think there's something there around like the intentionality behind creating relationships with people.

Kenny Lange [00:12:22]:
Well, I would even highlight the, the way you just phrased that, which has been a change for me because I've maybe part of the reason why I don't want to work for anybody else. It may be because I'm unemployable, but I even listening to the way that, that you constructed that of like, hey, this slipped, I got behind. I could use your help. A lot of people, especially if they get in a, a leadership position, let's say, like you're asking someone else on your team and that, that's the, the, the power dynamic that you have with this person. It can be a lot of I'm being squeezed, so therefore I'm going to squeeze. Right? Like, like the, the crap rolls downhill thing, which I've always hated and have fought against that since my first real like management position is because just because I got chewed out doesn't mean I need to go and chew someone else out. Like, I don't need to pass the buck. And you and I could probably talk about the, you know, from, from agency experience is, you know, the, the client chews you out, therefore you go and you chew out the, the, the, the developer, the designer, the copywriter, the whoever, the technical, you know, workers on the account are, that, that's not justifiable, but yet it happens every day and I do.

Kenny Lange [00:13:39]:
So I think even in just simple phrasing is one thing. The other, and this may be more helpful for direct communicators such as myself, is I had to start thinking about one. Not just. Was I clear? Right. Like, people have not often mis. Misunderstood what it is I'm trying to say. And usually they're like, okay, like I get what you're saying, you're an a hole. But I get it is I had to start thinking about actually what is the outcome I'm hoping for.

Kenny Lange [00:14:13]:
And when I realized and reverse engineered, like, oh, this isn't getting me to what I want. So, like, in your situation, I need this thing done, and it needs to be done. As Michael Scott said, asap is possible, but one way gets me to that outcome, and the other way may or may not, or at least it won't be the. The most positive version of that. And I. And I've had to talk with other people who are far as direct or more direct than I am and just say, well, do you think you got what you were hoping for? And they almost always go, no. And I was like, okay, well, if you care about being effective, which most of most direct people do, I was like, well, then you're working against yourself. And that's usually the thing that can snap it out so that they can still be authentic, but still be maybe leaning more direct on that spectrum.

Carter Severns [00:15:07]:
Yeah. And I think what you're alluding to there, if you want to go back to the same example, hey, I need this, and can you get it to me about whatever. It's helping them understand the why behind it. And I. It's also a manager that I had early on in my career, too, that was one of the best that I've worked for. He was very, very intentional about when he was asking you to do something. He first explained why he was asking you to do it, and then you got, oh, okay, now I understand the outcome and the intention of why I'm. I'm being, you know, assigned this task.

Carter Severns [00:15:35]:
And it completely shifts your mindset when you're going through that. The example you gave too, of, you know, you know, you get chewed out or screamed at, and then you turn around and do it. So the other person is like, to me, there's no room for that. That's the burden that you carry as a leader. Like, you are going to have to shield a lot of that and shield your team from a lot of that. But, you know, even in my role today, we had a fire drill yesterday, and, and my boss said, hey, look, I'm trying to prevent these. I'm trying to get out in front of as much as possible. This came down from so and so, and we need it by tomorrow.

Carter Severns [00:16:03]:
I apologize. I know it's not ideal. And just leading with that and helping everyone understand that it's not, you know, it's not a regular thing. I'm not trying to put this on you. It was put on me. And as a team, I Need your support to get this done. And then it just totally changes whatever that saying is, that your lack of preparing doesn't constitute an emergency. And I can never remember the right way to say it, but I think that, I think there's, there's some things lost in translation there where you're just saying, hey, I need this by tomorrow.

Carter Severns [00:16:30]:
And you don't give me any context or any understanding. But I think too, as a, as a leader, I've always pushed for as much transparency as possible. And so I think when you can help your team understand the situation you're in, all of a sudden there's a level of empathy that was never there before. And, and I think that's a critical piece too.

Kenny Lange [00:16:49]:
I, that's a, that's an excellent point because so often when we're the, we're not the leader of, you know, whatever particular team we happen to be on, there can be a lack of empathy. Like, ah, you know, we see all the, the privilege of, you know, they got, you know, nicer office, they get a bigger salary, they get all these things and a little bit. It's almost, I don't know where it gets started, but we almost dehumanize our leaders until either we, we really grow, you know, Jesus gets a hold of us or something like that. But it's when the leader can humanize themselves and show like, look, I'm, I'm trying to do the best that I can. This happened. Here's where I'm at and here's where I need your help and show that they're not this bossy, know it all, that maybe we built them up to be in our, in our minds, or maybe we're telling ourselves an old story about that person. Maybe they're growing or going through something and I, I think that that's helpful. It would be nice if everybody thought that way and had empathy towards each other.

Kenny Lange [00:17:50]:
But I think a lot of times we, we have to be the catalyst for that, for that, for ourselves. I will joke with people. It's like, I will share vulnerability. I was like, I know I'm not a hostage. Because you hear like in hostage training, if you're taken hostage, you share your name and your relationships, and the more you humanize yourself, the less likely they are to execute you. I think that that sort of applies in the workplace because so often we get so task, you know, an object focused that, that we forget that we actually, we have people here and we need to dignify them, dignify ourselves, be, be worthy of Being dignifying, you know, for people to dignify us. So when you were coming up, how has your approach to this changed? Like, obviously being. Being a senior vice president, you know, you're, you're the upper crust of the food chain, and that's one thing, but you weren't, you weren't like, born there and you've worked your up.

Kenny Lange [00:18:52]:
How has this, in witnessing, like going back to your original story of witnessing your vp, how has this practically changed and evolved for you as you've been able to move up?

Carter Severns [00:19:07]:
Yeah, it's a big question, and I don't know that. I don't know that fundamentally. It's changed a ton because I think the core of it is still the same. Right. You're going to go move into different jobs. You may have different bosses. You know, you may be reporting to the CEO, and all of a sudden they bring in a, you know, a vice president of the company or a CRO that you're now rolling into, which I've had those things happen before. But I still think it's flexing the same muscle.

Carter Severns [00:19:31]:
Right? And maybe you're starting from scratch with a new leader, a new job, whatever it is. But I think the intentionality behind understanding who they are as a person and helping, you know, convey that yourself as well. And I think the other thing too, I think that's helped me is I've had leaders along the way that have been transparent with me. You know, everybody, you know, in their role, and it's something that I still deal with on a regular basis, is, you know, I want to. I want a promotion or I want a bonus or I want a raise. And that person may very well be very deserving of that. And I may agree 100%, like, yes, you are ready. You deserve it.

Carter Severns [00:20:02]:
I totally get it. But sometimes they don't understand that we just had budget cuts two months ago. Do you know how tone deaf it would be for me to go to the CFO and the CEO and ask for a raise for someone? Like, there's just certain things like that that I think until you get to this level, you don't really get to experience that or be in those conversations. And so again, when I'm in those, I try to help be transparent and say, look, I agree with you, but here's the other factors at play in the other conversations that I'm in that make this just. It's not, you know, it's not a reasonable thing right now. And maybe that isn't PC or maybe that's not the way it should work. If you deserve it and it's time, you should get it. But it's just not the way businesses work.

Carter Severns [00:20:39]:
When things are not going well, revenue's down, that's not the good time to go ask for more money for people.

Kenny Lange [00:20:44]:
Right. Well, I think you're getting back to the context, just continually setting context and it almost feels like that the higher up you go, the, the more important context setting is for everybody. But I, I, I might also say, you know, for that person, if once they come into that knowledge of like, oh, we've had this budget cut, we're doing this thing is you, you might actually get to find out whether or not this person is on board for, for the team and the company. And I'm not saying like, oh, we're all a family, like the Ms. Appropriation of that term and idea. But to say, no, no, no, like I'm on this team and I am for the collective win. And in some of those cases, on any team anyone's ever been a part of, you've had some sacrifice, right? Like you've had delayed gratification, right. Which might mean instead of now, it's three to six months from now, you get the raise because the company's in a better financial position.

Kenny Lange [00:21:40]:
But if people demand their own individuality on some of those things, they need to figure out, like, oh, okay, well, I can actually free up a lot of budget by letting this person go because long term, they're not here for everybody else, they're here for themselves. And that can get back to like core values and, and culture that you're trying to cultivate. And that's up to every, you know, each individual company. When do you cross the line between setting context and oversharing? Because that's something I've seen for a lot of executives is trying to balance that. Because let's say there are budget cuts, there are some stresses financially within the company that you are privy to because of your position and that needs to help you. But you also don't want to create, you know, panic, uncertainty, doubt, like have mass exodus because everybody thinks the company's going under next month. How do you balance the right level of context setting and transparency?

Carter Severns [00:22:34]:
Yeah, truthfully, in that scenario, right. Ideally from the top down, there is a culture of transparency. And I think when you're looking for companies to work for and you're interviewing if they won't share financial type stuff with you in an interview of just where they're at from a revenue perspective, I'll Go to my roots of growth stage, VC backed, growth at all, growth at all cost type of companies. It's one of the first questions that I'd be asking in an interview is, you know, what's the Runway, how much cash you have in the bank and how much are you burning every month. And if there are companies that won't share that information with you generally probably not somewhere that you, that you want to be if you can avoid it. Because there's clearly not a culture of transparency from the top down. So that's one piece that I think in the startup world a monthly statement of here's where we're at, that shares to the entire company gives everybody context of what's going on. I think there's a level two of risk that's inherited when you join a startup.

Carter Severns [00:23:29]:
It's just a part of it. I think that everyone generally knows that, that, that does come with some level of risk. I will say there are, there are always things that are happening generally, you know, from an HR perspective potentially where you, you, you literally cannot speak about it like it is a fireable offense if you were to share some type of sensitive information. Those things of course I'm never going to repeat, I'm never going to say anything, but I can't tell you how many times I've had teams appreciate the fact that I break some news to them directly in a small setting as opposed to them walking into a hundred person company wide meeting and hearing that the VP of sales is leaving. I think people really appreciate the fact that they get to hear it from you and they get the opportunity to express how they feel or ask questions or seek clarity around it rather than, you know, just being dropped on them in a hundred person meeting. And everyone has this, you know, shockwave. So when allowed to, when I'm told it is okay to share this, I usually like to be the one to try to share with my team and, and be that person that conveys that news regardless of whether it's good or bad. But I think it, like I said, I think it comes back to hopefully the company has some, some value around sharing, you know, that type of information.

Carter Severns [00:24:34]:
Now obviously there are certain things that would never be shared, salaries, commissions, things like that. But you know, and I won't share those things either. Right. That's always confidential information. But I do think that people appreciate hearing it from their leader that they work day in and day out with. And so when I do have the ability to share that I will, when there are things that are generally Absolutely. You know, sensitive that aren't able to share, obviously, those are things that you can't. When I've been on teams and had managers and had VPs, I think I learned that.

Carter Severns [00:25:01]:
That I appreciated being in the know and that I appreciated knowing what was going on so I could have more context to it. And so that's something that I've always tried to share with my team. And so I think you ask anybody who's worked with me or worked for me, they know that I'm generally going to be pretty transparent, maybe to a fault. But, you know, in my opinion, it's people's right to know what's going on in the business as long as it's things that are. That are okay to be shared.

Kenny Lange [00:25:23]:
Yeah. I can even say not even being in the. In the same company is that I've always appreciated that. Just the level of transparency and directness that you've had about things that made it easy for us to collaborate together in the past. And that's. That's, for me, it's like, I hate guessing. I hate trying to figure, like, where. Where do I stand? Where do we stand? Is this, like, are they playing the cards close to the chess? Like that, to me, creates so much mistrust.

Kenny Lange [00:25:51]:
Some of that is a personality style thing. We got into the Enneagram and eights. We just. We hate guessing. It's like, just say it. I'd rather you punch me in the face than, like, sneak up on me. But how. I'm trying to think really quick here, Kenny.

Carter Severns [00:26:05]:
Let's. Let's spin it in a positive way.

Kenny Lange [00:26:09]:
See, this is why it's good in the.

Carter Severns [00:26:13]:
In the same capacity of delivering bad news, of saying, we can't get your raise right now. I think you have to be equally intentional about giving praise and giving encouragement and giving positive feedback. I remember the first huge agency that I worked in. One of our clients was like putting on a golf tournament or something. And my manager approached me and was like, hey, we're going to take two top performers from the team who feel like we deserve this to go to this golf tournament. Would you like to go? And I went, oh, I'm. I'm a top. Okay.

Carter Severns [00:26:41]:
I didn't know. I'd never heard. I never heard a peep of that. I showed up, I did my work, I worked hard. Had no clue that I was in the conversation of, like, this person is up for, you know, the. The candidate could be promoted soon or was quote unquote, top performer. Had no idea until I Got asked to go play golf with a client one day. And so I.

Carter Severns [00:26:59]:
There's. There's two sides to this, too, right? Like, there's a. There's a very important piece, too, of, like, giving positive feedback and giving encouragement, say, hey, that was great. You did an awesome job on this. Thank you so much for knocking that out. And I think that goes a long ways, too. And sometimes I have to remind myself as a leader because how much I didn't get that early in my career. And I think, you know, there's a whole nother thing about coddling in our generation that needs all this positive feedback or whatever, but there is a place in time to have some positive feedback when people do good things.

Carter Severns [00:27:25]:
And so as a leader, you also have to be intentional about seeking that out and not forgetting to say, okay, thanks, and then move on with your day. And that's something I still have to work on a regular basis of being intentional about that.

Kenny Lange [00:27:35]:
That. That is a tough one because we tend to, you know, only it's easier to speak up when things are going bad and call those things out than when they're going well. That makes me think of. There's a. Just a funny anecdote. This old guy was asked, I don't know, by, like, a friend or a kid or something like that. It's like, hey, how come you never say I love you to your wife? Y'all been married for, you know, 30, 40 years. And he goes, I said I love you when we got married.

Kenny Lange [00:28:02]:
And that I'd let her know if that changed, like, if that ever changes. And I do think that there are a lot of leaders that are like, hey, I hired you. There's also the other funny clip if you watch Mad Men where she's like, you never said thank you. And he goes, that's what the money is for. But I think sometimes we can't mistake that. But maybe we underestimate the. The need of people. You know, what's the.

Kenny Lange [00:28:28]:
I forgot who said it, but the. The core need of. Of every human is to be seen, heard, and know that what they do matters. And those small things can go a really long way, like being asked to play in the golf tournament. Been nice to know beforehand. Like, hey, you're doing really well. I really appreciate this. This is top notch.

Kenny Lange [00:28:49]:
Now, I want to get to your. Your comment about likability, because that, actually, that was bubbling up in my head, and it was maybe in the context of parenting. There's a. There's a guy, he has his own. I Forgot the name of his podcast, but he's, he's with Ramsey Solutions, John Delaney. And so he talks a lot about, like, relationships and, and, and interpersonal development and, and psychology. And one of the things he talked about was, like, with your kids, which I think being a parent is leadership. And he said, you can't, like, yes, that your kids should respect you.

Kenny Lange [00:29:26]:
Respect should be there. He goes, but he goes, you need to be likable because you're going to want your kids to want to be around you. Right. It's not enough that you just look out for them. You provide for them. You put food on the table, clothes on their back, roof over their head things, and that they, you know, that maybe they, you know, I know we're in the south, so. Yes, ma'am, yes, sir. No, ma'am.

Kenny Lange [00:29:47]:
No, sir is still big in, in our household. But do your kids want to be around you when they don't have to be? You know, I've got a couple that are teenagers, you know, and starting to hit. Our first one, our oldest one just is a freshman in high school. And so I'm starting to think, like, you know, in a few years, few short years when he's out of the house, is he going to want to come back probably to see his mom? I would hope so. But, like, is it going to be something that. Am I going to hear from him? Is he going to want to reach out and communicate? Not because he's like, dad, I need more money for, for food and snacks and, and whatever else. So when we think about, I think there should be a respect for, for those that are our leaders. But how do you think about likability? Because I used to think similarly.

Kenny Lange [00:30:38]:
It's as a frou frou thing. Like, I don't need you to like me. I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to get stuff done. How do we factor in likability without falling in the other ditch? Which I think is what maybe a lot of leaders think is, well, yeah, respect me, don't be rude, because you'll get fired and I have that authority. But are you going to want to work with me? Are you going to release discretionary effort? Or if I'm getting squeezed, and I do make that call for help, are you going to. Even if you didn't have to stay late, would you, to help me? How have you processed that in your career? Or have you seen that in maybe some other people that you've worked alongside?

Carter Severns [00:31:23]:
Well, I think you make a beautiful connection there with parenting, because I couldn't agree more. Somewhere I read or saw something like, you shouldn't try to be your child's best friend. That's not your responsibility. But it connects really well. Back to the point I made earlier. If you have a relationship with them and it's a positive one and you have rapport, when you do have to go to discipline your child or get on to them, it's always from a place of love. But at the same time, hopefully you've got enough of the good and the positive relationship and the connection with your child that when you do have to do some discipline, you know, it's not something that just completely fractures and breaks the entire relationship. Same way with an employee, in my opinion.

Carter Severns [00:32:02]:
Right. If you've taken the time to build that. That foundational connection with them, when you have that disagreement, hopefully it's a healthy one, you know. So to circle back to your initial question, which I've forgotten already, if you'll.

Kenny Lange [00:32:15]:
Repeat it for me, how do you think about, or maybe define likability so that it doesn't go into this ditch, like the trying to be your best friend sort of.

Carter Severns [00:32:25]:
Yeah, yeah. I think. I think there's. Sometimes it's just subtle things, and I go back to the silly, slack example of, you know, just trying to be kind to people. I think you forget how far that goes because we are human at the end of the day. And whether even it's recognized in the moment or if it's a subconscious appreciation of the fact that you're trying to be human with them, I think you forget that that actually can. Can go a long ways. And so I think a struggle with the likability thing is undoubtedly there are.

Carter Severns [00:32:57]:
There are some people who have a natural, outgoing, bubbly, whatever it is that is just built into them, which is probably where I struggle the most with this likability thing, because sometimes it just comes naturally to people generally think. I think my personality is built that way, and my wife always gives me a hard time because it's like you're best friends with everybody in the room, and it's. And that's just like the way that I'm wired, I think. So I think it goes. It goes back to the intentionality piece of it. If you're not wired that way, and if it doesn't come naturally for you, you have to make sure you go out of your way to do those things. And I've worked with a lot of those people. I've had a lot of those uncomfortable conversations that you Just talked about Kenny, where it's like, look, I know you don't see it, but you are being perceived this way.

Carter Severns [00:33:38]:
The way you are coming off the people on our team to other leaders in the company, this is the way it's being perceived. And again, I had a relationship with that person that I had to have that conversation with and it went great. They go, wow, no one's ever told me that. Thank you for taking the time to actually sit down and explain that to me.

Kenny Lange [00:33:55]:
That I love that. And you hear that so often. Is that when someone finally tells them, like I don't think you're meaning to, but you're coming across this way. It's like when you have something in your teeth and someone actually tells you like, hey man, like you got a little something in your teeth. And you're like, oh, thank Christ. I was like, who are all these other liars around me that were just going to let me walk around and go to this big presentation with like, you know, lettuce or, or whatever spice. Would you draw a, a comparison or do you see rapport and likability as distinctly different in this situation? Or do you, or do you see them as basically interchangeable?

Carter Severns [00:34:38]:
I think, I think you can build rapport maybe without likability, but I think it's this, I think it's the same thing, right of when you go into a one on one with someone on your team and the first thing is, hey, you relate on, on xyz, what's going on here? As opposed to how's your weekend? Do anything fun? Would you. And the, what you and the wife and the kids do and you lead off with something and that's not trying to be likable, that's just trying to genuinely make a connection with someone that does build rapport. And so it's not this cheesy, you know, see through, fake whatever. It's just like be like be a human being. Don't talk to someone that you wouldn't talk to like a friend essentially. So yeah, the likability thing I think is more potentially an intangible. It might not come as easy to most people, but I think building rapport, anybody can do. I think if you, if you are really trying to make a connection with the people you work with that is doable.

Carter Severns [00:35:30]:
Whether you have a naturally outgoing or, or quote, unquote likable, you know, gene in you.

Kenny Lange [00:35:37]:
Likable gene. I like that. What would you, if you had to distill the elements of rapport building, what would they Be.

Carter Severns [00:35:51]:
Going to sound like a broken record if I'm, if I'm honest here.

Kenny Lange [00:35:54]:
That's okay. We need to be reminded more than taught.

Carter Severns [00:35:56]:
Yeah, well, so I'll try to, I'll try to give you an example at least that I think has, has been good. So I've been, I've worked remote for, I don't know, probably, you know, six or seven years. And so by the nature of that, there is this, okay, we have a 30 minute window to talk about this project. We need to get through these four agenda items and move on. And by the nature of that, those things that I just talked about around having a chance to chat with somebody, sometimes they don't happen. And so one of the things that I've instituted in every team that I've had is I call it our coffee chat or marketing coffee chat. And it's a 30 minute call every Wednesday morning where you bring your caffeine of choice. And the only rule is no work talk for the whole 30, for the whole call.

Carter Severns [00:36:43]:
I can't tell you how many weird, quirky hobbies and interests and you know, we're talking about UFOs, we're talking about reptiles, we're talking about all these different things that you would never know about someone if you didn't set aside time just to have those types of conversations. And so I don't know if there's core elements, I don't have some, you know, beautiful written out, four step process for, for this.

Kenny Lange [00:37:06]:
But that'll be your next product.

Carter Severns [00:37:08]:
Well, yeah, right, but I think, I think that's one thing about, about, about having the ability to build rapport is you have to actually set aside time to do it. And so again, you know, even when I'm not in a conversation with my team, they've been on those calls and they know that someone's a huge Harry Potter nerd and they've got all this background and so when maybe they have a conflict or a disagreement, again, they know this as a person, as a human being, not just someone that you work alongside. So I agree with your statement. It's like it should never be called a family. This should never be a thing. And at the end of the day, honestly, when you leave a job, the likelihood of you talking to a lot of these people again is probably fairly unlikely. But I do know that your day to day is more enjoyable. The work you do is going to be more enjoyable.

Carter Severns [00:37:47]:
I think you're going to accomplish a lot more when your team has that culture of connection and a Willingness to do things for each other and see each other succeed.

Kenny Lange [00:37:55]:
I really like that. Especially in, in a remote setting. That's one thing I've had a lot of conversations with people about is just the, the level of intentionality. Going back you, you were talking about being intentional that you have to have in a remote setting to these sort of things is just much higher than when we're all in an office. And there can be some serendipity to that. You still have to be intentional. But I think the pressure or the importance of it is maybe a little, little less if someone say, is listening and they go, okay, cool, like I, I, I want to be that sort of rapport building individual leader. And maybe they're, they're sitting at an SVP level, maybe they're mid, maybe they're, maybe they're in their first management.

Kenny Lange [00:38:40]:
I imagine it looks a little different for everybody. But if someone wanted to take their first step next 24 hours with little to no money to start being more of a rapport building leader, what would you tell them?

Carter Severns [00:38:52]:
Yeah, I think there's a lot of tangible takeaways that we've covered in here. But when I think about something that actually could be executed on specifically if you feel like maybe you've got a blind spot like we've talked about, that maybe you're not sure how you're perceived or you're not sure what your personality type is or how that that is coming across other people. I love the concept of the 360 review. And you could literally go create a Google form for free, set it to anonymous submissions and send it out to your team and ask some of those questions about, you know, how do they feel the work environment is or how do they feel you are as a leader? Do they feel like you communicate effectively? I'm sure there's a million templates you could ask. Go ask ChatGPT to crank you out a 360 review of questions that you could send out. But I think if you don't seek out that feedback and no manager of yours is willing to sit down with you and say, hey, I think you're lacking, I think you should probably focus on your communication and how you connect with people. That to me is a simple step, right? Go collect some actual real feedback from people that you work with on a daily basis that you can take in and say okay, I see some gaps here or hey, you know what? I'm really good at this. I didn't realize that that's something that I should, you know, lean into more.

Kenny Lange [00:39:57]:
Yeah, I, I really like that. There's obviously there's some, some paid versions that if you, if you want to graduate and get more sophisticated later on, that's good. One of the, my favorite questions, and I wish I could take credit for it, but I'm not smart enough, is asking people, especially if you're getting with like your close circle of friends, family, coworkers, a trusted boss, is what do you know about me that I don't, but I should. And I've leveraged that question long before people were basically asking ChatGPT that question because I've started seeing that go around. It's like chatgpt, what do you know about me that I might not know about myself? I think it's a great question, but maybe go ask some humans before you start asking the robots. And that one question that can be really helpful. And speaking for those of us who do have maybe a more direct or aggressive style of communication, sometimes you're not getting it because people might actually be afraid to give you that sort of feedback, even if you're wanting it and craving it. So it may feel unfair, but doing what Carter suggested and initiating that request may be all someone needs to be able to give you some really helpful feedback.

Kenny Lange [00:41:16]:
And that feedback might be you're terrifying to talk to and you're like, I don't think so. Like, I'm great with babies and all sorts of things, you know, like. But you may have a demeanor that you're unaware of. So I think that can be helpful. Carter, if people wanted to know more about you, maybe ask you some follow up questions, what, where would you send them? What would you advise them to go do?

Carter Severns [00:41:39]:
Yeah, for me, LinkedIn is it. I don't really do any other social media or any other things like that besides like reposting things in my kids that my wife tags me in on Instagram. So LinkedIn would be it for sure. It's Carter Severns, pretty simple, One of the many bald white guys on LinkedIn. But I think you'd be able to find me. I don't think my name is that common. So yeah, LinkedIn is it. And feel free to shoot me a message and connect with me.

Carter Severns [00:42:00]:
Always love chatting about leadership and things of that nature.

Kenny Lange [00:42:03]:
So excellent. Yeah, he's definitely a great follow. He has really cool, insightful things to say. He uses emojis really well, so he's a great follow. Carter, thanks so much. I hope this isn't the last time, but this was a lot of fun and to you if you've listened this far. Thank you. Congratulations.

Kenny Lange [00:42:22]:
Gold star. We appreciate you and we see you See, I'm practicing what we were talking about already, but I would deeply appreciate a like a rate, a review, a subscribe, whatever the right button call to action is on the platform that you're consuming this. A couple things.

Carter Severns [00:42:38]:
1.

Kenny Lange [00:42:38]:
Give me feedback. I want to know how to make this better. I don't want to do this just because I want to hear myself talk or I want to talk to cool people. That certainly talking to cool people is a benefit, but I want to make it valuable. The other thing is, the more engagement that these episodes get, the more likely they are to end up in front of people who could really benefit from this. And it's a simple way for you to pay it forward because you never know what kind of conversation or what topic might unlock someone's next step in their leadership. And that's just a free way to to benefit your fellow leader and fellow human. But until next time, change the way you think, change the way you lead.

Carter Severns [00:43:11]:
We'll see you.