How Leaders Think with Kenny Lange

There are those who think that no. There aren't any eternal principles that apply to me, because I or my product or my service or my team is just so unique. And I think that sort of terminal uniqueness as I call it, or someone just thinks that there's nothing that anyone ever learned can ever be applicable to them. That's delusional.

Welcome to the How Leaders Think podcast, the show that transforms forms your mind by giving you new ways to think. I'm your host, Kenny Lang. And with me today is the Ben Wolff. He is the founder and CEO of Wolf Edge Integrators. Man, I paused for a long time.

I really had you on the edge of your seat. And it's just a cool name for a company too. I'm really sad that my name isn't cool like yours. But he started his entrepreneurial career as a key executive at a mission driven technology powered startup running on EOS, which is the entrepreneurial operating system, if you didn't know. And he built most of its operations and helped it grow to become one of the largest, fastest growing organizations of its type in the state after just 3 years.

Ben founded Wolf's Edge Integrators because he believes that there is a right fit fractional integrator for every organization who needs it and is ready for 1, because those are 2 different things in my experience. Through WEI, he serves clients as a fractional integrator and curates and develops an elite team of other fractional integrators for the firm's clients. Welcome to the show, Ben.

Thank you, Kenny. Amazing to

be here. Well, it is so good to have you here. As I told you before, been a fan of yours, followed your content on LinkedIn. And so I I can nerd out in our conversation, and I don't care if anybody listens. I mean, I do care, but it's for my own gratification.

Right? It's like, people say all the time. They're getting, free counseling or therapy or business advice in these interviews.

Well, I'm getting free flattery, so I appreciate that.

There you go. There's an exchange of value, and this is what the marketplace is all about. Well, tell me, Ben, what is on your mind?

What is on my mind is burned out business owners. People who, you know, branched out on their own and started their business or branched out of their business or inherited their business, you know, from family, whatever it happens to be, to have a make a big impact, have a good life, make great service you know, products, do great services, and that's what they love. They're making big deals, and it gets beyond a certain point, and it just it gets frustrating. Things take longer. You don't get where you want it to be.

Life is not like how you expected. You're burned out. Things just aren't working. Can't get your people to do what you want or can't get your people to be the way you want. And, you know, you just are are frustrated and burnt out and feel like you know?

Anyway, so that's, that that's that's what's on my mind is those burnt out, frustrated business

owners. That is a great topic. One that I I think probably needs a bit more talking about. But I'm curious, as much as you and I may may see this in in our LinkedIn feeds and there's expert research and all these things, but it keeps happening. Right?

Like, if if the if it's such an easy thing to prevent as some people might, you know, a spouse in in a LinkedIn post, why does this keep happening? What's what's the thinking that is is keeping us in this burnt out mode for so many business owners?

Well, that was a great question. I I really don't think it is easy. I mean, there's there is not an easy solution. The what is keeping us in that? I think I think there's a mindset that a lot of us have that if I technically can figure it out or if the people who grew up in my business, on my team, if I think that they could figure it out, and they also who happen to be at a lower price tag.

And if I can figure it out, if they could figure it out without spending any more money, then we've gotta figure it out. And there's just this resistance to investing in yourself, investing in your team, or investing in your business, to move faster. Even though all I shouldn't maybe not all, but most business owners, most founders are very ADD. I mean, they really not just because of ADD. They really wanna move fast.

Like, they want they want fast progress. They wanna move fast. They wanna grow fast. They wanna move fast. They wanna build fast.

And that's part of why they're frustrated and burned out because they're not moving. I mean, they got they went fast for a while, and then it got frustrating because things stopped moving fast. They hit a ceiling or a bunch of ceilings. Yeah. And so I think that I think the the mindset that's getting in our way is this thinking that I have to do it on my own, or my team has to do it on their own.

And I think I think that's I think that's what I think that's one of the main things that's getting in our way, getting in our own way of of not trying the new things that could get us where we wanna go faster, which is what we want.

Right. I'd be curious your thought on the the speed element because that that really resonates with me. You know, you ask most, visionaries, you know, when do you want things? Yesterday, which can be very frustrating to most integrators or or operators. Right?

Yeah. I was told, like, when I started. Yeah.

Do you do you think it's more about, a a longevity at trying to sprint versus the the distance between current reality and expectation that is more responsible for the burnout. Because, obviously, you could sprint for a long time, but it's meant to be a sprint. Like, you could fatigue very quickly, and it's sort of like these peaks and valleys, Right? Where you're you're executing execute XE, and then you hit this roadblock and or you just keep executing, and, eventually, you are the bottleneck. You have to rest your your mind, your body, your soul in the process.

Where do you think that balance is on on responsibility for for this

burnout? Meaning whether it's whether it's burnout from sprinting too long or or do you mean what's the other option? Meaning, like, for

Or the

impatience of how long

it's been. Impatience, but just the distance between current reality and and desired reality or that future state that they're working towards. You mentioned that there may be just roadblock, roadblock, roadblock. And if you do feel constantly blocked, like you're not moving fast at all. So is it moving fast for too long or not moving fast at all that that would be more likely to cause burnout in your opinion?

I think it's probably the sprinting thing, but it's a sprinting thing combined with not feeling like you're making real progress. Meaning, if if if they were sprinting, and I think they they they felt like, at some stage or in earlier in growth, they did feel like they were sprinting, and they did feel like they were growing fast. And it's very exhilarating. Even though you're sprinting and even though you're exhausted, it's also exhilarating. But at some point, they got to the point because they're hitting the ceiling, these sailings are hitting obstacles and not sure how to you know, trying one thing and then trying another thing and then trying another thing and not overcoming it.

So it's like sprinting but on a treadmill. So you don't really feel like you're accomplishing. It's not like you don't have that exhilaration that goes along with it. Yes. I guess you could you could be exhausted just from sprinting, but I I think that it's combined with the frustration of not seeing the progress that you want and not, you know, just feeling stuck like you're running in the hamster wheel they talk about or the treadmill or whatever.

Yeah. I think that's the combination, I think, that makes it so Bernie Bernie Audi.

Burnout is I hope that that's a term that's in your book. Yeah. It's not. If not, maybe I'm the was gonna

take that off.

Maybe we could get that into the revised version, like a like a second print. We'll put in burn burnouty. So yeah. So so sprinting, like, on a treadmill, like, you're it's all the activity without the reward of of, like, crossing a finish line or a milestone.

Limited reward. Yeah.

Yeah. So if if they're experiencing that, you know, we have the classic, Einstein's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. You mentioned that a lot of the the business owners, leaders that that you've observed or even worked with, they're not trying new things. They're not innovating approaches. What's getting in the way of that?

Because when you think visionary, you think, you know, 90 I you know, they got a 100 ideas before lunchtime. Now most of those are probably trash, and they but there's a nugget in there somewhere. What is preventing the innovation towards new approach?

Well, I think it's it's because there's, you know, their people's ideas are in the areas where they have expertise. Right? Like I have, you know, what's in my product, my service, my sales, whatever my superpowers are. That's the areas where I'm having most of my creativity. But in running a business, which run you know, which runs according to the principles and will run and will grow and succeed according to the principles that most other businesses run according to.

That's that's not your area of passion. It's not where most of your innovation's gonna come. And the truth is a lot of these things don't require innovation. It's require it just requires you to, you know, bring in experts. So this is where I get to, I guess, the who not how concept.

Right? This is what's gonna get over that what's gonna get over that hump of we have to figure this out on our own. And yet, as you said Mhmm. Division of insanity, we keep, you know, we keep trying to reinvent the wheel. These are taking 5 times longer than they have to.

That's why we have all this frustration and burnout. Mhmm. And, you know, I think I think that, you know, Dan Sullivan talks about this who not how concept. He's been talking about it for decades. He wrote a book on it by Dan Sullivan and doctor Benjamin Hardy, who, you know, you were talking we we were talking about before we started recording.

And so the who not how concept is instead of asking, okay. How can I do this? How can we figure this out? How can we reinvent the wheel? I mean, you don't call it that when you're doing it, but you're like, how can we figure this out?

You know what? This thing that you're trying to figure out, how do you manage a team? How do you structure this kind of company? How do we do this when we have 30 people instead of 20 people or 15 people? Like, all these things have been solved before.

You don't have to figure that out for the first time. That's why things are taking you so long. So instead of asking, how do we do this? How do we do that? Ask, who can help me do this?

And that's where we come into you know, for for example, like our firm is fractional chief operating officers or COOs, integrators. And so it's these people have built companies like the one you want yours to be before multiple times. Yeah. They work with a team of other people that have all done that before, some in similar industries. And so they could just they just they they know what to do.

They see where you the destination you wanna be at. They get into your team as a fractional CMO or integrator, you know, or or any other kind of fractional executive. If you're talking about a marketing challenge, a CMO, if you're talking about sales challenge, a CSO, if you're talking about technology challenge, a CIO, CTO, CSO, whatever that, or finance, CFO, fractional, and, they can come in there. They've dealt with this before. They take your destination where you wanna go.

They look at and figure out where you are currently, figure out a path how to get there, and and drive execution on it because they've done it before. So sort of that who not how. Bring in somebody that's actually done this before, who doesn't have to reinvent the wheel, and you can actually go a lot faster. Doesn't mean it's easy, but you can go a lot faster. And, because you don't have to figure it out.

You don't have to reinvent the wheel. So I I guess that who not how concept is what I wish people would, you know, remind themselves of. Read that book, listen to a podcast on it, you know, on this concept of who not how. Ask yourself, who can help me do this? Who's done it before instead of how can I do this, which can only you know, is just a a recipe for tons of work and, you know, slower results?

Yeah. Which I I could not more highly recommend the that book. So go out, find it. We'll we'll put a link to it in in the show notes. It's it's a great read.

It's also, on Audible, and a great listen. I think that they put some some bonus extras where, doctor Hardy, interviews, Dan at the end of each chapter. So you get a little extra, straight straight from the authors. But, as you say that, the thing that pops up in in my head, is a lot of times visionaries or and visionary types, they they may know, like, oh, yeah. Plenty of people have done this.

So they're not confused about the fact that what they're trying to build has been built by somebody somewhere out there. But there can be, not I don't wanna say a strict adherence, but but sort of, a closed handheld thought of, yeah, but I'm gonna do this my way, or I got a particular perspective or or or method or something else. Because everybody thinks that they're the next, you know, $1,000,000,000 unicorn or or what have you. How have have you and your team, interacted with these visionaries? Probably not the ones that are calling you because they've, you know, found some humility to say, I don't know everything.

But the ones that haven't, what how do you interact and and challenge politely, those assumptions that, yes, somebody else has done it and probably could get me, you know, all the money and and operational efficiencies I want. But maybe it's because it wasn't my idea somehow that makes me less of a pioneer innovator visionary CEO.

It's funny. The that that idea you threw in at the very end about it's not my idea. I I think of that even as a as a separate challenge that you do have with some people, who, you know, who, you know, feel like everything has to be their idea. And, yeah, I mean, that's a I mean, I don't know. To extent someone's really like that, I think that's a core values thing that at least with my firm would not be a good fit.

If you know, because, you know, it was not gonna work with their team, much less with us, that, you know, we have to, you know, if if you have to if you have to posture yourself and make, you know, make the other make the owner think of every idea that you thought of so that they'll think it's their idea. Otherwise, they don't reject it. That's gonna be that's gonna be tough at least for us to work with somebody like that, honestly. But to your point before about, your to your point right before that about, you know, the uniqueness of each business, the uniqueness of each concept, and that there's there is legitimacy to that, of course. And, you know, what what I ask people to understand is that 80% of your business is not unique.

I mean, 80% of the way you need to run your business is according to eternal good business running principles. Right. Anybody who's run a business of a certain size and has learned what to do, can, you know, can have a better way of doing than what you would just figure out through trial and error, you know, over a 5 times longer period. It just can just save you the time. Now there's that 20% of you that is unique, you know, of your business or your product, your service, your team, your customers that is unique.

And I think the key is and and what what all the members of my team, the COOs and integrators, you know, who've owned or run businesses that are on the Wolfside Integrators team, what they all do, what I do is try to marry together that knowledge of the eternal principles of what works in business and what works in any business and marry those together with the discovery process at the beginning of every engagement to, like, learn about you, learn about your customers, learn about your team, learn about your product, learn about your service, learn about the things that do make you unique and the unique challenges that you face and in your region and your community and everything, you know, that you're dealing with it is unique. And marry those two things together, not replace that, not steamroll over it and say like, oh, there's one way to do things that is right everywhere. I mean, if you're worried that someone's gonna do that, yes, you do not want someone who's gonna do that. You don't want someone who's gonna steamroll over and have a one size fits all approach. That is not gonna be a good fit because it's gonna ignore that 20% that does make you and your team and your product or service unique.

Mhmm. And so our goal is to do some discovery at the beginning of an engagement and marry together that experience of what really works and what is the eternal principles. Marry those together with what's unique about you. Apply them you know, apply those eternal principles, you know, in a slightly unique way for you and your team and your product and service. And I think that's that's the way you get that.

You know, and there are those who think that, no, there aren't any eternal principles that apply to me, because I or my product or my service or my team is just so unique. And I think that that sort of terminal uniqueness as I call it, where someone just thinks that there's nothing that anyone ever learned can ever be applicable to them, you know, unless they've spent 5 years here full time and they just, you know, kinda inculcated into everything, that that's delusional, sorry to say. But that's you know, it's, you're not terminally unique. I mean, it's, you know, it's it's just gonna it's just gonna make you it's just gonna punish yourself by making making making yourself wait much longer and through much more heartache than you really have to, because you don't have to give up what makes you unique to marry that uniqueness together with, you know, eternal good management principles and good management experience, to to get to the desire that you uniquely have of what you wanna bring into the world, what you want for your life, the impact you wanna make on your community or your team, you know, or the world.

I mean, depending on what kind of business you're in and what your mission is.

Right. I I I love that. And I love the you give me a new phrase, the terminally unique. So I'm gonna wanna borrow that one.

Have some people anything for that.

Fantastic. Because I got several people I'd probably like to go introduce it to. I'll let you know if I still have a relationship with them afterwards. But, so if if somebody's gotten let's say, they've gotten over their terminal uniqueness, and and they are they're moving, they're growing, but maybe they're stuck. How would you recommend owners, leadership teams even identify when the right time to bring in fractional leadership.

Because as you mentioned, it's not just that that fractional second in command type position. It can it can really go across the range. I mean, as your your your book subtitle says, it's executive talent you thought was out of reach. So when is the right time to start thinking about fractional leadership? And and how would you, how would you contrast it from, say, hiring a a consultant to come in and maybe give you a playbook or something like that on a short term engagement?

So

So that's a few great there's a lot of very loaded questions there. There's a lot in in those questions that you asked. When is the right time to start looking at fractional executive leadership, of whatever category? I would say it's when you start to realize that you need someone who's done this before. Right?

You need experienced executive leadership, but you can't afford or don't yet need on that experience on a full time basis. That's really when you start thinking about it. And you again, you can't afford the caliber of person that you need that has that experience on a full time basis or don't yet need someone that's not yet a full time job even if they would be doing it. So, you know, even if even if you can afford them, it wouldn't really be a full time job. So bring in someone of that caliber with the experience, not the beginner person that's gonna have to figure it out on their own, but bring in someone with that experience on a fractional basis.

And, you know, at at that point, I would say that's the right time to do it. When you, again, when you need that caliber, you need that experience, but can't yet afford or don't you need it on a full time basis? And what was

the second part of your question? The what's how would you, compare the differences of that fractional leadership with, with a consultant who maybe has a a time tested playbook of some sort?

So the difference between consultants and fractional executives in general is that the fractional executive is sitting on a role in your organizational chart in your org chart. Mhmm. They're not I mean, they may be a contractor technically, but they're actually sitting on your org chart. They're sitting on a seat in a regular role in your accountability chart. If you have a you know, there's a sales role in your accountability chart under the CLO or integrator or visionary, however you're structured, and the fractional executive sales leader is sitting in that seat on your accountability chart.

They're not they're not a contractor. They're not you know, they are responsible for the entire sales function of your business. Mhmm. Fractional CMO is in charge of the entire marketing function of your business, not just one product, not just giving advice, not just giving you a playbook, but they're responsible for the entire marketing function of your business or sales function. Or in the case of an integrator or COO, they're responsible for running your business.

Right? The entire leadership team reports to the COO or integrator. And, you know, same thing with the CFO. CFO is responsible fractional CFO is responsible for this whole finance function of your business. AR, AP, bookkeeping, all of that reports to them, Whether that's an external, outsource resource, whether that's an internal team that's reporting to them, they're sitting in that role.

So they're actually in a role on your accountability chart. You know? In contrast, the consultants is well, there's 2 kinds of consultants. Right? There's the kind that give advice or, you know, sort of, consulting.

You know, they they give advice or advisory sort of services, or they maybe do some kind of big research. And they meet with everybody, and they come out with a 60 page report at the end about, you know, all all the things that are wrong and all the things you should be doing. And they, you know, kinda wish you luck. And, and, and then, you know, as I call in the book, drive by consulting, right, which is, giving that advice. And that's what it is.

So there's there's advice. There's advisory. There's, you know, sort of consulting. The other type of consultant is an execution consultant. Right?

Maybe let's say your marketing firm. They do an element that's giving advice. They set up, you know, maybe your marketing plan, and then they build your website and, whatever. You know, maybe they ex you know, they they they execute your social media program. Whatever.

Right? They're responsible for certain execution. So, in a consultant, they could have execution. They could have advice. But in any of those things, they're gonna be doing so on a on a limited scope basis.

They're gonna have a certain scope for the work or the scope for the advice that they're giving. Whereas, you know, who you know, whoever's if you had if you have a marketing leader in your business, they're not limited to just your website or just your social media or just coming up with a strategy and then wishing you luck with it. They're responsible for that whole function of the business, whatever that means. Right? You you all determine what together what that means and what exactly is included within that.

But, they are responsible for the entire marketing function of the business for your CMO, whether fractional or full time. Mhmm. The entire sales function of your business, whether fractional or full time. And, so that's the difference with a fractional executive is they're responsible for a whole function of your business for as long as they're engaged with you. Just like if it would be a full time person as long as they're employed with you.

That is the that is the big difference.

Gotcha. So it sounds like, a lot of it comes down to the results that they're charged with driving and the accountability and responsibility. Like, they're gonna be held accountable differently than than a consultant would be sort of can buy a thing off the shelf with with a consultant, so to speak. No offense to all of you consultants. I'm sure you're great.

I'm just we're gonna go after everybody today. So, we'll see how many emails we can generate. You can direct all of those to Ben Wolf at no. So say someone there they say, yes. We're ready.

We we know the seat that, the fractional executive leadership is right for us as opposed to, an outsourced, sort of consultant, adviser, thing like that. As they go to find someone, it could be easy to just say, well, let me see let me see your resume. Let me see what you've done in the past. Have you built something, starting at our scale? Have you taken something to the scale that we want to?

Have you worked with many of us before? And those are legitimate questions, but, it could be very easy just to go, like, have you built a company from x to y and in what time? How do you encourage people to interview or recruit or find the right fit executive leadership?

Well, I think that the first thing people need to do is to, is to, you know, sit down, take some quiet time, and confirm what exactly kind of fractional executive do you even need, if you're looking at this. Right? Is your is your main areas of challenge really mostly all surrounded around marketing? That is, you know, probably a CMO. Is it mostly around technology?

Probably CIO or CTO? Is it mostly around finance? CFO. And, you know, if it if it's your entire business, it's probably COO or integrator. And, and so it's important to get that clarity.

And then the second thing you need to ask yourself and write down so that you're clear on it is what outcome are you looking for? Alright. What's the end state? If you're sitting here 18 months in the future, this is Dan sort of a take off on one of Dan Sullivan's, strategic coach questions. But if you're sitting here 18 months in the future and you think like, oh, I engaged a fractional integrator or fractional CMO, and it was amazing.

So what are list all the things that will have happened over the last 18 months for you to be able to say that this was an amazing engagement when I brought this person in as my CMO So that you're clear what your outcome needs to look like. Once you're clear what your outcome needs to look like, what kind of executive you might wanna retain, then you can start meeting with people, communicating to them. Mhmm. Here's what I need. You know, here's what needs to happen.

Here's where we need to get. Here's where I wanna go. And you're not gonna you know, obviously, our goal as a fractional, you know, integrator firm, for example, of Sedge Integrators is to, you know, pull that out of you. But if you've already thought this through and, you know, then that is good. The third thing I would say to think about is your core values, is to think about what because, you know, a fractional executive, just like a full time executive, is it will be a member of your team.

Just because it's fractional, it's still a member of your team. And it is not gonna go well unless just like a member of your team needs to be exhibiting your core values on a regular basis. So to the fractional members of your team need to be exhibiting core values on a regular basis. And so I would ask you to be mindful of those things. Don't think it doesn't matter just because they're not there full time.

You know, chemistry is important. Chemistry with your team is important. The way they influence the direct reports within your company is going to be important. So, you know, it's important to ensure that they you know, however you've defined those core values, hopefully, you've done that work. Hopefully, you're working with a system and sole coach like Kenny or an EOS implementer or whoever where you've defined those things.

And, and so you could, sort of test for them just like you test with any other employee that you'd be hiring, when you're when you're, you know, when you're interviewing potential fractional executives for the team.

Gotcha. And are there some, assessments on the hiring that you would recommend, especially at the executive level that that might be helpful, especially if it's your 1st fractional executive?

I yep. Honestly, I've gotta say assessments are not one of my big things. So I Okay. I haven't I don't have a lot of, I'm familiar with them. I know Colby and a few others, but, not not an area of expertise or something that I I use on a regular basis.

Gotcha. So so maybe just if you have one that you found helpful so far in your business, just continue that

Yeah. Yeah. I would I would apply that to a fractional executive just like you do with, member you know, any other member of your team.

Now once a fractional executive is there, right, I can imagine that it would be tempting to just well, whatever they say and whatever they bring because they're the expert and they bringing it on. But, what's what's the interaction like in terms of, like, hey. I wanna I wanna learn from you, and you're gonna help execute, but also, like, engaging with them to to to have the right expectations of them because they aren't there full time. Right? So what's the right amount of leaning on them from the whole of the team, especially in and say, like, the a COO role where they're responsible for running it.

And you got a bunch of executives who are there every day, but you have a fractional COO who may not be available every day. How how do you coach your clients about the right expectations to have on you and and or maybe one of your team members?

I think I think people should definitely feel safe in challenging the fractional executive. You know, if there's things that, if there's things that they say or they're suggesting that you see potential problems with or challenges with, maybe unforeseen consequences you don't know if they're thinking about or accounting for those potential consequences in their thinking, say speak up. Bring it up. I mean, as a, you know, as a fractional executive of whatever type, we should be leveraging your as the visionary and leadership team, we should be leveraging your experience, your knowledge. You're the ones Mhmm.

Who know your business, your product, your services, your customers, your team better than we do. Because, yes, we're coming in from the outside. And so we should be leveraging your experience, taking that into account, asking a lot of questions, probing, in order to learn. But at the same time, we may not think to ask certain things. And so, you shouldn't feel shy about, about challenging, challenging the person, you know, or or at least asking questions and bringing up points to say, you know, are you factoring x into what you're saying or into what you're recommending?

Can we just confirm that this is being factored in? Are we allowing for this, to ensure that it's not being ignored or something that they're not conscious of? Mhmm. But, but at the same time, they are highly experienced. And so they you know, you really should listen to them.

I mean, if assuming that they are taking things into account Right. You should listen to them. And I think that the bigger challenge sometimes is that, it you know, is is when people don't don't have a sufficient regard for outside experience and outside wisdom and what's worked for many, many, many other people, and that sort of gets that terminal uniqueness thing. But I'm assuming it's not rising to the level of, you know, terminal uniqueness and, you know, even if it is look. Nobody you know, we always have challenges in every relationship.

But, I think it's it's critical to take the knowledge of the team into account. And if you're not sure the person's taking it into account, make sure to challenge them. Have an open and honest conversation. There's no reason why you can't do that just like with any other team.

Right. So drawing this back to what you mentioned at the start of the conversation about burnout business owners. So they they've gone through the process. They've hit the wall. They say we're ready for for fractional leadership to come in because we can't, for whatever reason, solve this problem, this obstacle that's in front of us.

Should should these burnout leaders, I would imagine after a period of time, you know, you're solving problems. You're seeing progress and momentum build. They start to feel much better, and maybe they feel like, hey. You know what? I feel a little bit more confident or a little bit more energized to hop back in the driver's seat a bit.

What is the right expectation on tenure? Like, is is fractional leadership just until you can afford full time leadership? Is it, hey. We need to plan on 18 to 24 months to really, you know, bust through this this obstacle in front of us, or or is it something else?

Well, it it definitely depends on the particular role and the particular business, whether it should be long term or on some sort of interim basis. Wolf's Edge Integrators, our our feeling is definitely vast majority of the time, we're there to be interim. We're there to uplevel a leadership team, ensure you know, put right people, right seats into place, achieve some major goals and obstacles and, you know, and overcome some major obstacles, and then get them to a point where we can elevate someone from internally within their team to become the integrator or bring in someone from the outside if there is no one in internally who's a good candidate for that. So we're looking at it 18 to 20. You know, I would say 9 to 18 months, excuse me, as a typical engagement for fractional integrator.

Mhmm. And, but that that's not a one size fits all thing. I I definitely know people, let's say, in the CFO space that, you know, you have a high caliber CFO in a business. You know, you've got a controller. You got bookkeepers.

You may never need that. That I mean, you know, if you have a $20,000,000 company, a $10,000,000 company, I mean, they may never, I mean, they may never get to the point where they need that type of CFO on a full time basis. You get that great high caliber CFO adding huge value. And, you know, for the day to day financial operations and reporting, you've got a controller, you got bookkeepers, you've got AR, AP, you got a whole team in there. You don't need that CFO to be there full time.

I mean, it's really not a full time job. So I know I I definitely know people, especially in finance, that are going to have fractional CFO be fractional on a long term basis. You know, it'd be 5, 10 years. Yeah. It's definitely you know, I think it really depends on the nature of the role and what kind of person you need.

Now is as an integrator COO is an interesting case also because sometimes you know, usually when people bring in a fractional COO or integrator, it's because you need a a may you need to overcome a major challenges. There's major upheaval that needs to be overcome in the business. And as major growth that needs to happen, it's huge changes. But then at some point, you're not gonna always have those kind of huge changes. So it's not necessarily the same person who gets once and has the capacity to excel really well at making major change and the kind of person who's going to tweak and manage and just make incremental change over a longer period of time.

It's not necessarily the same person. If you hire a COO who's great at making that a people change, they're probably gonna get bored after a couple years if, you know, once that major change ends, and it becomes more management and tweaking and incremental change. You know? And by the same token, you bring in more of a manager and ask them to make major change. They're you're gonna feel like a failure, and they're gonna end up firing them.

Yeah. So I think that's another reason why sometimes bringing in a fractional integrator, for example, can be good on an interim basis because you can make major change. They're good at that. Right? That's actually what they always do.

And then they can help you elevate somebody who's gonna be good, the right person for your long term integrator, which may not need to be as much experience, may not to be as high of a caliber, and they could still be a great leader of the business and a great driver of execution, you know, and great at incremental change over time, once that major change has been done by somebody who is a specialist in that.

Gotcha. Now that makes a makes a lot of sense, especially about the the difference, that you were just mentioning there at the end of, big upheaval, big change management versus the the day to day. I definitely found that in in my experience, and I am actually going through that right now. I I serve as the integrator operator at my church. Mhmm.

And I've taken us through a major change, but now that's starting to level out and I'm starting to get bored, there's no secrets kept here, so we're already working on a transition, plan.

No. We're gonna do that.

Yeah. No. No. No. My my lead pastor is already well well aware.

But we started to notice that last year and said, you know, I I think with all the change that went on, you made a lot of sense because you have a high, you know, tolerance for chaos and organizing it. But once it's organized, then I I sorta get bored. I don't feel like the that my skill set is a fit. I was like, let move me on to the next thing that isn't built out or not built the way that it it should have been, and I'll I'll start start the process over. So that makes a whole lot of sense.

I wish I would have run into you couple years ago. You probably would have saved me some heartache. So if a burnt out leader or maybe somebody serving a burnt out leader, I I see that with some regularity, you know, people who witness it, see it in an owner care care passionately about them and and and their personal health, because they want them to succeed. What's the first step someone can take towards, bringing on fractional leadership towards eliminating that burnout in the next 24 hours that that would cost them little to no money?

Well, one thing they could do is, I mean, read the read the book, fractional leadership landing executive sound like you thought was out of reach. I mean, it it it talks not just about what that is, how it works, you know, overcoming objections, but also, you know, actually goes into practicalities. How does a fractional CMO work or a chief sales officer or, integrator or COO or finance or technology, and just shows you actually how do those things work. Right? So you get a lot of good information there.

Read it. Listen to it. There's an audiobook, you know, or bring it to your, bring it to that business owner. Right? Give them a copy of it.

That could be a good way of of doing it. The other thing, if it's an integrator thing, obviously, check out wolfs edgeintegrators.com. You know, book a discovery call. You could do that in the next, you know, half hour or whatever. It doesn't cost anything.

And, you know, that's what else? That's 2 thing that's 2 things that come to mind. Okay.

Excellent. And, I don't want you to leave without mentioning your podcast as well.

Oh, I appreciate it. Yeah. Win Win podcast, that is mine. And it's, you know, focused on, focused on topics that, you know, can can add immediately usable value and knowledge for business owners. Very wide variety of topics within that, but, you know, no no personal self help, no, no no spiritual, no politics, no history, you know, but it's just stuff that will help entrepreneurial business owners, not solopreneurs, not big corporate you know, people that work at big corporate companies, 10 to 250 person businesses, things will immediately give them value.

Win win podcast. Excellent.

Definitely go check it out. We'll link that up. And then if anybody wants to get in touch with you or know more about what you have going on or just follow your content, where would you send them?

I would send them to wolfs edgeintegrators.com. We've got, tons of good information there, blog. You can reach out to us through that as well. Wolfs edgeintegrators.com.

And I would definitely recommend go follow Ben on on LinkedIn. He posts lots of great content and, is usually tagging other people so you can start to see the the other folks he's associated with. So, you know, was it Dave Ramsey says, thoroughbreds like running with other thoroughbreds, not not with donkeys. So I I use that. I find somebody I like and I spider out from there.

So, Ben, thank you so much for for coming on and and sharing your wisdom and, sharing your your book, which I'm excited. Like, I haven't interviewed somebody who planted the first flag. So, this is a first for me as well. Wow. Thank you so much.

If if you as a listener got value out of this and you wanna help others, you know, make progress on whatever their journey is in leadership, please like, share, subscribe. It would mean a lot to me, and I I'm sure it'd mean a lot to somebody else that can discover it. But until next time, change the way you think. You'll change the way you lead. We'll see you.